BHoP 002 Viva Le Caesar! Viva Revolution!

BHoP#002 Viva Le Caesar! Viva Revolution!

Hosts[edit | edit source]

Jonathan Fisk (JF) Adam Koontz (AK)

Transcript #NEEDS EDITING#

00:07.042 --> 00:12.767 [JF]: We're just going to start by jumping right in and saying, viva la César, viva revolution.

00:14.148 --> 00:18.812 [JF]: It's a History of Power with two white guys, Brief History of Power with two white guys, Dr. Adam Koontz and Pastor Jonathan Fisk.

00:18.832 --> 00:23.755 [JF]: We've got all sorts of things about us that make us both interesting and white and not interesting, but we won't talk about that today.

00:24.396 --> 00:28.739 [JF]: We're going to jump from lizard men and reptile people taking over the planet.

00:29.500 --> 00:33.342 [JF]: last week with our inaugural episode directly into what?

00:33.763 --> 00:41.327 [JF]: The history of power is about the history of revolution, the history of kings who were not kings that became kings by getting people to get rid of kings.

00:41.347 --> 00:42.127 [JF]: I don't know.

00:42.147 --> 00:42.788 [JF]: How do you want to start on this?

00:42.808 --> 00:47.911 [JF]: And we're going to talk about Munster today if we can a little bit, but just revolution being kind of at the heart of things.

00:48.806 --> 00:54.192 [AK]: And I think when you think about the term revolution, you probably think that that's the opposite of kings.

00:54.432 --> 01:08.528 [AK]: But one of the things that you see in both the Munster Rebellion, which we'll talk about today, but also if you go to like a larger biblical framework, which we will, is that the notion of getting rid of hierarchies or oppressions

01:09.729 --> 01:19.112 [AK]: in all kinds of different situations, all kinds of times and places, never actually gets replaced with what you were promised it would be replaced with.

01:19.672 --> 01:36.178 [AK]: And Munster's a really good case study in that because you see in it this kind of preview of something that becomes a lot more common later in history, especially European history, which is that the promise of equality always winds up in a fresh oppressor.

01:36.818 --> 01:38.779 [JF]: Some animals are more equal than others, I believe.

01:38.919 --> 01:39.119 [AK]: Right.

01:39.499 --> 01:39.739 [JF]: Yes.

01:40.880 --> 01:50.063 [JF]: And strangely, I mean, I re-listened to Dan Carlin, Hardcore History, Prophets of Doom, one three and a half hour episode on Munster.

01:50.423 --> 01:51.163 [JF]: I re-listened to it.

01:51.203 --> 01:52.324 [JF]: So I went through it a second time.

01:52.644 --> 01:53.504 [JF]: I did not take notes.

01:53.564 --> 01:55.485 [JF]: I wanted to, but I usually listen before I go to bed.

01:55.945 --> 02:00.327 [JF]: But again, I couldn't help but be just stunned at how, like,

02:01.508 --> 02:03.490 [JF]: some of what's going on in our country today.

02:04.672 --> 02:05.673 [JF]: It is, in the cities.

02:06.393 --> 02:13.501 [JF]: Minus maybe the prophetic, you know, sword of light, Jan van—is it Leiden?

02:13.641 --> 02:14.583 [JF]: Yes, Jan van Leiden.

02:15.083 --> 02:19.528 [JF]: And minus some of that flair, we have different kinds of prophets today, but so similar.

02:20.609 --> 02:21.230 [JF]: So I don't know.

02:21.910 --> 02:34.863 [JF]: Why should we care about – I mean if you just had to answer that question blindly, why should we care about what happened at Münster with some guy named Jan van Leeuwen who, by the way, as a result, is so brutally butchered by the authorities?

02:34.943 --> 02:37.285 [JF]: I mean the end of this story is not for children.

02:37.825 --> 02:38.946 [JF]: It is awful.

02:39.207 --> 02:40.448 [JF]: So that's your teaser.

02:41.148 --> 02:42.290 [JF]: Why should we care other than that?

02:44.039 --> 02:55.253 [AK]: You should care because the modern idea that somehow we're not dealing with religions when we deal with something like BLM is a lie that you need to just disregard.

02:55.273 --> 03:01.561 [AK]: The parallels are there as we tell the story, but just in a nutshell, whenever you have

03:02.867 --> 03:03.868 [AK]: total upheaval.

03:04.328 --> 03:09.431 [AK]: A lot of people separated from the families they grew up in, separated from ideas they grew up assuming were true.

03:09.871 --> 03:16.195 [AK]: Whenever that happens, and that's way more widespread in our time than it was in the 16th century, even with the Reformation.

03:16.776 --> 03:23.680 [AK]: Whenever that happens, you're going to have a time that gives rise to things that modern people would call cults, negatively.

03:24.301 --> 03:27.563 [AK]: And if you were being super neutral, you'd call a new religious movement.

03:28.183 --> 03:30.965 [AK]: Just look at the 1960s and 1970s in the United States.

03:31.486 --> 03:37.691 [AK]: You had all kinds of new stuff get started in all kinds of places, not just California, all over the country.

03:38.311 --> 03:41.614 [AK]: Cults of all kinds, all over the map politically.

03:41.974 --> 03:43.996 [AK]: This always happens when there's upheaval.

03:44.576 --> 03:56.606 [AK]: So if you see new cults popping up in modern America, or you look at a Black Lives Matter rally, you're going to see behavior that you're going to call religious, if you're being honest.

03:58.360 --> 04:00.922 [JF]: But we don't believe in religion, so we can't call it religious.

04:01.842 --> 04:04.624 [JF]: And who else didn't believe in religion, I think, right?

04:04.664 --> 04:05.344 [JF]: Was Napoleon?

04:05.544 --> 04:06.465 [JF]: Tell me about this a little bit.

04:07.945 --> 04:09.426 [JF]: That's an awkward transition.

04:09.526 --> 04:16.190 [JF]: But when I brought up Münster and revolution, you said French revolution, wait, no, Russian revolution.

04:16.590 --> 04:17.331 [JF]: Okay, cool.

04:17.551 --> 04:19.852 [JF]: So then what do those things have to do with the Munster story?

04:19.872 --> 04:29.298 [JF]: Because what we're going to try to do is paint, what, several anthems at once of historical events that all seem to echo awfully close to each other in very diverse places.

04:30.058 --> 04:33.361 [AK]: Because we believe that there is something called human nature.

04:34.301 --> 04:46.904 [AK]: And that human nature, therefore, like the way that certain dog breeds behave in a certain way, or certain plants need to grow under certain conditions, human nature, when put under similar conditions, will repeat itself.

04:47.284 --> 04:50.465 [AK]: This is why anyone ever thinks that history is a cycle.

04:50.905 --> 04:53.366 [AK]: Now, I said last time, I think it's a spiral.

04:53.666 --> 04:57.967 [AK]: That means there's repetition, but it's going somewhere towards the second coming of Christ.

04:59.611 --> 05:08.935 [AK]: But because of human nature, you get this dynamic going on both in Munster and in the French Revolution and in the Russian Revolution with the rise eventually of Lenin and also Stalin.

05:09.216 --> 05:09.736 [AK]: And it's this.

05:10.136 --> 05:12.937 [AK]: When there's total chaos, human beings can't handle it.

05:13.277 --> 05:14.178 [AK]: They don't even want it.

05:14.918 --> 05:19.421 [AK]: they will sometimes induce it, they'll create it, but they don't want it and they can't bear it for long.

05:19.881 --> 05:30.368 [AK]: And so chaos always gives rise to dictatorship, whether it calls itself that or not, simply because human beings want and need and crave order.

05:31.249 --> 05:39.915 [AK]: And if they can't get it in a legitimate, sort of peaceful, law-driven way, they will get it in a way that is brutal, but effective.

05:40.275 --> 05:42.456 [JF]: Yeah, it's not that we want to have masters,

05:43.853 --> 05:49.138 [JF]: We all want to be our own master, but we don't want to have other people mastering us either.

05:49.838 --> 05:54.843 [JF]: And for that, we prefer, then, order rather than chaos, because in chaos, other people try to master us, and we're like, no.

05:54.963 --> 05:57.265 [JF]: And then we fight, and it's awful, and we don't want that, right?

05:57.665 --> 05:59.547 [JF]: Most of us, even non-Christians, right?

05:59.567 --> 06:02.689 [JF]: So we're Christians, but non-Christians don't really want to fight all day long.

06:02.829 --> 06:03.150 [JF]: Some do.

06:03.530 --> 06:05.051 [JF]: But most of us want order.

06:05.272 --> 06:07.534 [JF]: So we're saying that that's built into—however you look at it—

06:08.654 --> 06:11.557 [JF]: Thermodynamics, creation, I don't care, right?

06:11.577 --> 06:19.064 [JF]: It's built into it that order has to press back a little bit in the world we see, and particularly when we're dealing with human nature.

06:19.985 --> 06:24.529 [JF]: I would say it's bigger than evolution itself is that order exists, but it pushes back.

06:25.782 --> 06:33.049 [JF]: Which means that the chaos has to be covered, and we would rather have a – what you said, basically, a wicked man covering us than no covering whatsoever.

06:33.090 --> 06:35.872 [JF]: But that doesn't mean there's not such a thing as a good man leading.

06:36.773 --> 06:46.503 [JF]: But before we get to that then, even for all of this to arise out of chaos, I mean, how does a revolution arise out of chaos when you have a reigning Caesar like…

06:47.463 --> 06:49.945 [JF]: the Russian czar, like same word, right?

06:50.445 --> 06:55.969 [JF]: World War I has something to do with it, but let's paint that picture a little bit of the bourgeois proletariat issue.

06:56.789 --> 07:01.473 [AK]: The strange thing about the Russian Revolution is this, that it is supposedly Marxist.

07:01.733 --> 07:14.021 [AK]: I think the Leninist in the hyphenated phrase Marxist-Leninist is a lot more important because Lenin is the person that figures out how to run a country, at least with Marxism as its official ideology.

07:14.121 --> 07:16.022 [AK]: But the important thing is that he can run the country.

07:16.843 --> 07:31.634 [AK]: When you're thinking about things like that, Russia should be surprising because Marx is talking about industrialized societies, and Russia is not very industrialized by the time of the First World War compared to almost all the other combatants in the First World War.

07:31.654 --> 07:37.979 [JF]: They're an overweight, aging empire ready to kind of have its knees knocked out if it didn't have a lot of help from everybody else.

07:38.399 --> 07:38.599 [AK]: Right?

07:39.300 --> 07:40.460 [AK]: Territorially large.

07:41.000 --> 07:45.143 [AK]: They had lost to the Japanese about a decade prior.

07:45.563 --> 07:49.545 [AK]: There's more to that story than just the Japanese being better than the Russians.

07:49.565 --> 07:57.049 [AK]: They had a lot of, Japanese had a lot of financial help from the Americans and the British, but the Russians are overwhelmingly agricultural.

07:57.109 --> 07:59.731 [AK]: You just would not predict a Marxist revolution in Russia.

08:01.189 --> 08:07.732 [AK]: One thing to observe in Munster and in France and in Russia is the role of people who can talk.

08:08.192 --> 08:13.815 [AK]: That's why last time I said that something along the lines of humanities majors run the world, right?

08:14.395 --> 08:17.696 [AK]: So you can make money, you can be a good worker, you can be a good engineer.

08:17.837 --> 08:27.241 [AK]: Russia was actually had amazing advances in aviation technology, for instance, which is part of the reason why they were able to develop a space program later on in the century.

08:27.921 --> 08:31.786 [AK]: But those sorts of people do not control a country.

08:32.346 --> 08:40.296 [AK]: Bad actors who have really good abilities at talking and convincing and organizing are people who control a country.

08:40.676 --> 08:42.138 [AK]: And so what happens in Russia.

08:42.198 --> 08:44.260 [JF]: I mean, if you're right there, can good actors do that, too?

08:45.154 --> 08:45.755 [AK]: Yeah, totally.

08:45.935 --> 08:46.636 [AK]: So that's the key.

08:46.656 --> 08:47.357 [JF]: That's the key.

08:47.497 --> 08:48.538 [JF]: But continue.

08:48.578 --> 08:53.904 [AK]: One of the things that I'm saying is that words are far more powerful for human souls than anything else.

08:53.984 --> 08:54.164 [JF]: Yes.

08:54.404 --> 08:55.866 [JF]: The actor – let me just – let me say it.

08:56.046 --> 08:58.008 [JF]: The actor controls the civilization.

08:58.349 --> 08:59.150 [JF]: It is a show.

08:59.630 --> 09:06.338 [JF]: Reagan won for a reason, and especially when you're talking about tools of communication in the media age.

09:06.678 --> 09:11.362 [JF]: You just can't pretend like this thing we—well, you're just hearing our voices now.

09:11.422 --> 09:13.144 [JF]: We're seeing each other across the internet.

09:13.424 --> 09:15.146 [JF]: This thing is tremendously powerful.

09:15.186 --> 09:20.231 [JF]: I think it was Emmett Brown in Back to the Future that recognized this, and it's a joke in the movie, but there's something to it.

09:20.611 --> 09:21.472 [JF]: It is a show.

09:21.932 --> 09:23.814 [JF]: Right now there's two shows going on in the United States.

09:24.074 --> 09:27.017 [JF]: One is the All the World's Collapsing, Get Rid of Trump show.

09:27.317 --> 09:30.300 [JF]: The other one is the Democrats are Making the World Collapse, Keep Me Here show.

09:30.740 --> 09:31.881 [JF]: And we watch, right?

09:32.722 --> 09:40.829 [JF]: Don't underestimate the power of that in all of this, even back to the day when, I mean, if you're going to ask me in an instant, why did the czar lose Russia, it's because he forgot he was putting on a show.

09:41.669 --> 09:45.332 [JF]: He completely forgot he had to keep his people believing in his story.

09:46.033 --> 09:46.994 [JF]: And yeah.

09:47.134 --> 09:52.839 [JF]: And so again, this whole conversation is let's look at these old stories so we can learn how to tell our own rightly.

09:53.159 --> 09:54.680 [JF]: I did interrupt you a little bit, please.

09:54.700 --> 09:55.461 [JF]: Do you remember where you were?

09:55.501 --> 09:57.763 [AK]: Well, yeah, because I think what

09:58.888 --> 10:04.876 [AK]: The basic insight is that when God wants to save the entire world, he sends preachers.

10:06.018 --> 10:08.902 [AK]: This is how he wants to deal with human souls is through preaching.

10:08.922 --> 10:12.126 [JF]: But let's put that in words that don't have to be adopted by Christians, though.

10:12.146 --> 10:12.767 [JF]: What do you mean by that?

10:12.807 --> 10:13.788 [JF]: I mean, I think you're right, but...

10:14.269 --> 10:23.855 [AK]: What I mean is that when we're talking about human nature, the most basic thing about it is actually not, contrary to Marxism, how much bread it has.

10:24.276 --> 10:32.621 [AK]: The basic thing about human nature and about human souls, spirits, whatever word you want to use, is actually what they trust in.

10:32.641 --> 10:33.442 [JF]: Yeah, what's your story?

10:34.235 --> 10:42.342 [AK]: And if you're sold different stories, if you're given different stories, to say it less cynically, you will end up becoming a different kind of a person.

10:42.382 --> 10:44.003 [AK]: You'll be invested in different things.

10:44.343 --> 10:48.587 [AK]: You'll take up arms in defense of different things, because now you believe a different story.

10:48.847 --> 10:49.808 [JF]: Now you become your story.

10:50.408 --> 10:52.809 [JF]: You become your heroes and there's no way around it.

10:52.829 --> 10:58.230 [JF]: The human that thinks I'm strong enough to not do that just has already had it done to them quite a bit.

10:58.510 --> 11:01.431 [JF]: You want to be an independent thinker, then know that whatever you put in is going to come out.

11:01.591 --> 11:04.811 [JF]: And in that regard then, so isn't it dangerous to study the history?

11:04.831 --> 11:14.994 [JF]: I mean, if I put the history of France and Russia and Munster into a blender with Black Lives Matter and pour it out, that seems kind of scary to me.

11:15.034 --> 11:15.834 [JF]: Why would I want to do that?

11:16.354 --> 11:28.826 [AK]: I want to do that so that I can understand the confluence of media power and urban masses brought together in order to change things, right?

11:29.366 --> 11:41.878 [AK]: So it doesn't really matter whether or not in 1917, the communists, the Bolsheviks specifically, are able to organize the tens of millions of devoutly Eastern Orthodox peasants living in the Russian countryside.

11:42.358 --> 11:51.786 [AK]: They need to organize people who are concentrated because of war and because of industry in the city centers in order to affect regime change, right?

11:52.066 --> 11:58.711 [AK]: Regime change, revolution, these things don't depend on actual majorities doing anything.

11:59.172 --> 12:11.742 [AK]: They depend upon motivated minorities, not in a racial sense of the word, but just in a mathematical sense of the word, motivated minorities setting out to do something, actually to take action.

12:12.102 --> 12:13.982 [AK]: And that's what happens in France and Munster too.

12:14.363 --> 12:17.763 [JF]: A tribe, a party, whatever you want to call it, a group, a movement.

12:18.263 --> 12:21.564 [JF]: And I think what is interesting, then it's not that the majority needs to take action.

12:21.584 --> 12:23.065 [JF]: They need the majority not to take action.

12:23.445 --> 12:25.405 [JF]: They need the majority to sit there and let them take action.

12:25.865 --> 12:36.648 [JF]: And the more that they can do that by telling you, trust our story, the more that they can achieve, especially on a national level, you know, big government, you know, small government is a little tougher because the story's right in front of you all the time.

12:37.168 --> 12:40.549 [JF]: And so you can test it with your nose, usually a bit more.

12:41.269 --> 12:51.216 [AK]: So, I mean, the bigger the media ecosystem is and the bigger the government is, obviously, the more important that the storytelling becomes.

12:51.697 --> 12:59.783 [AK]: Because if we're saying, oh, this is a controversy about the town council and how the zoning laws are made, well, you can go meet those people face to face.

13:00.083 --> 13:07.749 [AK]: But if you're being told about something that's happening 50 or 500 miles away, the only thing you can do with the information you have is either trust it or not trust it.

13:08.109 --> 13:16.291 [AK]: That's why we're saying the most basic thing and the thing that revolutionaries always understand is that the basic building block of being a human is trust.

13:16.671 --> 13:20.911 [AK]: You either trust people and stories or you don't for whatever reason.

13:21.272 --> 13:30.933 [AK]: And so control, right, control of the means by which trust is built up, which we usually call in modernity, media is absolutely paramount.

13:30.953 --> 13:33.574 [AK]: If you control media, you control essentially everything.

13:33.594 --> 13:34.294 [AK]: Yeah.

13:35.268 --> 13:35.768 [JF]: everything.

13:35.808 --> 13:37.269 [JF]: And we don't believe that, Adam.

13:37.549 --> 13:39.770 [JF]: That's why this, I think, show is important.

13:39.790 --> 13:46.253 [JF]: It's why everything I do on my other stuff, the agenda is to say, we have no idea how powerful this stuff is.

13:46.733 --> 13:48.514 [JF]: And it's not that we shouldn't use it.

13:48.554 --> 13:49.915 [JF]: I'm not screaming unplug the world.

13:50.495 --> 13:55.978 [JF]: But if you don't realize that someone who does have access to this and knows how to use it can control you, then you're going to be controlled.

13:56.658 --> 13:57.638 [JF]: That's just it, right?

13:57.718 --> 13:57.898 [JF]: Right.

13:59.159 --> 14:06.501 [AK]: Yeah, and I don't want to offer sort of like a Fox News cold take, like don't trust the mainstream media, but tune into my cable TV show.

14:07.561 --> 14:13.703 [AK]: Because when I say media, I don't just mean things that pretend to be or present themselves as news.

14:14.483 --> 14:15.623 [AK]: I mean, movies.

14:15.863 --> 14:17.464 [AK]: I mean, stories.

14:17.524 --> 14:18.884 [AK]: I mean, yeah, all of it.

14:18.944 --> 14:21.365 [AK]: Like the stuff you were told about

14:22.310 --> 14:23.892 [AK]: America in second grade.

14:24.593 --> 14:25.874 [AK]: That's all media.

14:25.994 --> 14:27.376 [AK]: Education is a form of media.

14:27.396 --> 14:31.361 [AK]: I think that's why there's such a push right now to make sure that schools open.

14:31.741 --> 14:38.569 [AK]: It's not just that we depend economically on having working mothers and an enormous pool of relatively cheap labor.

14:39.090 --> 14:40.431 [AK]: It's also that we depend

14:41.272 --> 14:52.735 [AK]: societally and in immediate terms, we depend on being able to fill your head as a child for 12 to 13 years before we can't legally require you to attend school anymore.

14:53.075 --> 14:53.315 [JF]: Right.

14:53.575 --> 15:05.659 [JF]: Well, there's a lot of other stuff that goes on in school in terms of behavioral formation that COVID's got me thinking about, you know, as I walk in out of the bathrooms and watch different levels of use in bathrooms in public places become really worse in America in the last 10 years, just kind of across the board.

15:05.699 --> 15:06.939 [JF]: It's like, well, who is teaching them?

15:07.259 --> 15:08.419 [JF]: You know, where is it happening?

15:08.439 --> 15:11.180 [JF]: And right now, you know, the kids aren't in school a lot of times.

15:11.200 --> 15:16.461 [JF]: So there is, that's a whole different topic about which schools are opening, when, why, how, what state you live in.

15:18.321 --> 15:24.962 [JF]: But the idea that, I mean, I think you're getting at that information is formation, right?

15:25.142 --> 15:33.624 [JF]: And so when you have something coming into you that is saying this other thing, here's a story, you will reflect it.

15:34.485 --> 15:38.649 [JF]: The question is do you reflect it by a deflection or by like an inflection?

15:39.130 --> 15:43.334 [JF]: Are you combating it in such a way so as to strengthen what you already have?

15:44.135 --> 15:48.539 [JF]: Or are you saying this got through and in fact is now me?

15:48.879 --> 15:57.868 [JF]: And I'm going to tell you again, this is what the totalitarians all know about the media that we have in the modern age is it doesn't matter if you say no the first time or the 30th time.

15:59.105 --> 16:01.327 [JF]: If I could send that message at you a billion times, you lose.

16:01.987 --> 16:03.008 [JF]: Your brain just loses.

16:03.929 --> 16:08.452 [JF]: And so how did, I want to ask the question, how does this happen in a time before media?

16:08.693 --> 16:11.775 [JF]: That's where Munster becomes incredibly curious as a place to me.

16:11.995 --> 16:12.976 [JF]: Yeah, can I push this back that way?

16:12.996 --> 16:13.997 [AK]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

16:14.097 --> 16:17.439 [AK]: So the way that that happens is that there are always media.

16:17.499 --> 16:19.961 [AK]: The question is always simply extent, right?

16:20.422 --> 16:28.508 [AK]: So before you have broadcast media, before you have print media, really, even before that, you have quite literally preaching.

16:29.148 --> 16:37.272 [AK]: So Munster is a case study in this basically because it's a town that is coherent and has grievances against outside powers.

16:38.172 --> 16:40.033 [AK]: It's a city, still a city.

16:40.213 --> 16:43.434 [AK]: It's now pretty much entirely Catholic nominally.

16:44.115 --> 16:50.237 [AK]: But in the 16th century, it had a lot of people sort of – we would call them maybe middle class.

16:51.017 --> 16:52.138 [AK]: It's a merchant city.

16:52.198 --> 16:52.918 [AK]: It's up and coming.

16:54.813 --> 16:57.435 [AK]: Yeah, so they have connections internationally.

16:57.475 --> 17:00.217 [AK]: They have connections with people that are not local.

17:00.557 --> 17:03.319 [AK]: They can get fresh ideas relatively quickly.

17:03.899 --> 17:13.105 [AK]: And one of those fresh ideas is the idea that you don't have to listen to everything that the Pope says, which implies in Munster that you don't have to listen to everything that the bishop who rules the town says.

17:13.166 --> 17:14.426 [JF]: He's also the prince, right?

17:14.526 --> 17:15.407 [JF]: He's the prince bishop.

17:15.427 --> 17:17.008 [JF]: That's one of those awesome medieval things.

17:17.368 --> 17:18.649 [JF]: I'm your pastor and your king.

17:18.929 --> 17:19.190 [JF]: Take it.

17:20.267 --> 17:20.387 [AK]: Right.

17:20.547 --> 17:34.578 [AK]: Well, and I think that when we think about medieval people, one, no modern American who's contemplating wearing goggles every day soon enough, no modern American gets to call anyone superstitious anymore.

17:35.239 --> 17:35.759 [AK]: That's over.

17:36.160 --> 17:36.980 [AK]: That's completely over.

17:38.021 --> 17:40.923 [AK]: Also, I will say this for- I want to make you defend that.

17:40.943 --> 17:41.144 [JF]: I'm sorry.

17:41.164 --> 17:41.864 [JF]: I want you to defend that.

17:41.964 --> 17:43.846 [JF]: I completely agree, but I think you have to defend that.

17:44.592 --> 17:45.753 [JF]: That's a broad, that's a broad story.

17:45.773 --> 18:02.185 [AK]: I mean, okay, so like you can find news clips from late February from MSNBC, ABC News, CNN, solidly quote, middle to left news outlets talking about, oh, there's a coming mask shortage, but that's kind of silly because it's not really that big of a deal.

18:02.885 --> 18:09.494 [AK]: Now the messaging over and over and over again, really from all sides of the political spectrum, is you must wear a mask so we don't kill each other.

18:09.774 --> 18:13.379 [AK]: And the Christians are telling each other that's what it really means to love people is to wear a mask.

18:13.599 --> 18:19.527 [AK]: Okay, I'm just skeptical because I can remember and the internet remembers for me and I can find the video.

18:20.618 --> 18:31.581 [JF]: So superstition is the fact that we are more willing to believe the most recent noise, whatever it is, from our holy people who say, we're the holy people, don't question us.

18:31.921 --> 18:40.124 [JF]: We'll believe what they say, even if it changes over time, which is the definition of a superstitious people just kind of following a lying prince king, right?

18:40.144 --> 18:40.944 [JF]: Or a prophet king.

18:41.184 --> 18:43.044 [AK]: And that affects our personal behavior.

18:45.225 --> 18:52.151 [AK]: in a way that like, I mean, people will contact their pastor and say, you're not doing enough, you're not doing enough, you're not doing enough for COVID stuff.

18:52.532 --> 18:57.036 [AK]: They were not this concerned about people not remembering the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.

18:57.376 --> 19:02.421 [AK]: They were not concerned about anyone breaking the fifth commandment or the sixth commandment or any commandment really.

19:02.781 --> 19:11.248 [AK]: They're just concerned about what they were instructed to do and they will quickly do whatever they need to do, even to the extent of wearing their mask when they're outdoors completely alone.

19:12.009 --> 19:17.792 [AK]: So that superstition is when you do not have a commandment of God authorizing what you're doing.

19:18.092 --> 19:21.514 [AK]: You're sort of making it up as you go along and there's never an end to it.

19:21.974 --> 19:22.294 [AK]: Never.

19:22.654 --> 19:25.135 [JF]: There's like a level of holy fear that gets attached to it.

19:25.195 --> 19:25.355 [AK]: Yeah.

19:25.736 --> 19:25.936 [AK]: Yeah.

19:26.016 --> 19:27.757 [AK]: So go ahead.

19:27.837 --> 19:28.937 [AK]: Go ahead.

19:28.957 --> 19:32.339 [AK]: So what I'm saying is you don't get to think that you're superior to the past.

19:32.819 --> 19:34.800 [AK]: We are more superstitious than they were.

19:35.180 --> 19:40.483 [AK]: They could at least go out of their houses breathing air on their own without anyone saying yay or nay.

19:41.303 --> 19:45.911 [AK]: The other thing I'll say for the Prince Bishop is this, it's transparent.

19:47.113 --> 19:53.505 [AK]: And if there's one thing that I hold against democracy, it's that it is almost never honest about who is actually in charge.

19:53.565 --> 19:54.607 [JF]: Right, right, right.

19:55.188 --> 19:55.388 [AK]: Yeah.

19:56.550 --> 19:57.491 [JF]: Yeah, it's just the mafia.

19:57.811 --> 19:58.472 [JF]: It's the mafia.

19:58.832 --> 20:00.874 [AK]: The prince bishop says, I'm the guy.

20:01.115 --> 20:02.256 [AK]: I have all control.

20:02.716 --> 20:05.860 [AK]: I control your temporal body and I control your eternal soul.

20:05.880 --> 20:07.882 [JF]: But this is where it has to work out that way.

20:07.982 --> 20:15.351 [JF]: So the irony of this story, and I'm going to give away the ending, the guy who gets mutilated at the end of this entire thing, what's he end up but a king prophet?

20:15.791 --> 20:16.592 [JF]: He's the Prince Bishop.

20:16.912 --> 20:19.673 [JF]: All you get is the same thing on the other side.

20:21.134 --> 20:25.056 [JF]: Other factors about Munster as a city that I found fascinating, it was like an impregnable fortress.

20:25.236 --> 20:32.240 [JF]: This thing was like a major bastion so that when this guy who's the Prince Bishop has to take back his own city, it's a bit difficult.

20:32.401 --> 20:33.141 [JF]: He can't quite do it.

20:33.621 --> 20:38.964 [JF]: And even these kind of commoner mercantile class peasant Anabaptists end up being able to defend it.

20:40.746 --> 20:47.934 [JF]: There was something else I wanted to ask you about the lead-up to it, though, because, I mean, it is tied to the Reformation, but that's not the – that was not the important part.

20:48.315 --> 20:48.796 [JF]: I can't do it.

20:48.816 --> 20:52.841 [AK]: Well, you have – what you have is a – you have a change in media control.

20:53.241 --> 20:55.844 [AK]: So the Catholics are really not that good.

20:58.163 --> 20:59.524 [AK]: combating new ideas.

21:00.264 --> 21:06.067 [AK]: And they get overwhelmed in Munster, first of all, by people that actually have direct connections to Luther.

21:06.347 --> 21:11.949 [AK]: Some of them preaching Lutheran doctrine, some of them not, kind of having moved on from that.

21:12.610 --> 21:14.131 [AK]: That prevails for a time.

21:14.311 --> 21:16.692 [AK]: So then the struggle becomes between

21:17.432 --> 21:24.898 [AK]: not will we all just let each other be once what are called the evangelicals, generically, have control of all the city churches.

21:25.999 --> 21:31.883 [AK]: The struggle then becomes a power struggle about whose version of the truth will now prevail.

21:32.504 --> 21:38.829 [AK]: And the people that will be called Anabaptists just call themselves, this is interesting branding, Christians.

21:40.330 --> 21:50.019 [AK]: monster, the Christians take over what you could call the Lutherans, and then the process that happened to the Catholics then happens to anyone who remains doctrinally Lutheran.

21:50.279 --> 21:50.980 [AK]: You're exiled.

21:51.861 --> 21:53.282 [JF]: Yeah, they gradually take over.

21:53.322 --> 21:56.605 [JF]: But before all this happens, there is more set up to this, too, right?

21:57.025 --> 22:02.811 [JF]: So there is a certain level of poverty that is pretty normal in Europe.

22:03.917 --> 22:04.517 [JF]: at this time.

22:05.238 --> 22:18.906 [JF]: So there's rich mercantile class, rich, wealthier, up-and-coming mercantile classes, things like that, guilds, enlightenments in full swing, literacy is going up, but you're mostly bondservant peasants regardless of your color.

22:19.646 --> 22:22.608 [JF]: So the message of anabaptism, which was quite mingled

22:23.468 --> 22:36.023 [JF]: It was not only justification by grace through faith, as Luther preached, but was also something of a utopian, soon-to-be-arriving kingdom of God where all people would beat their sores into plowshares and have food.

22:36.764 --> 22:43.172 [JF]: And to some extent, a couple people, at least once in a while, get the idea that we're supposed to make this happen by beating our plowshares into sores.

22:43.792 --> 22:59.646 [JF]: And that is kind of the setup here under the ground that, again, I think can show you, I hope, and maybe, Adam, you can fill us in more on the other side, the commonality between Münster and, say, downtown South Chicago and, say, what, France under who?

22:59.746 --> 23:00.226 [JF]: I'm not sure.

23:00.646 --> 23:07.893 [JF]: Definitely under the last czar and his falling apart regime, you had a whole lot of poor people with a very real grievance.

23:08.493 --> 23:10.194 [JF]: a very real grievance against their government.

23:10.414 --> 23:15.556 [JF]: I am not a fan of Black Lives Matter as an organization because it's a Marxist organization that is against fatherhood.

23:15.616 --> 23:20.999 [JF]: I think it's a lying organization, marketing very cleverly to destroy all that I hold dear in many ways.

23:21.539 --> 23:24.100 [JF]: At the same time, South Chicago is a mess.

23:24.940 --> 23:26.781 [JF]: Yes, they should be protesting their government.

23:27.822 --> 23:28.122 [JF]: Yes.

23:29.342 --> 23:30.163 [JF]: It's crazy not to.

23:30.383 --> 23:30.963 [JF]: Please jump in.

23:31.363 --> 23:32.124 [JF]: Tell me about France.

23:32.864 --> 23:33.144 [AK]: Okay.

23:33.164 --> 23:34.705 [AK]: So in France, you have

23:35.885 --> 23:40.349 [AK]: You have an economic stratification, which is pretty extreme.

23:41.650 --> 23:44.993 [AK]: You also really have no way to go about changing that.

23:46.034 --> 23:57.803 [AK]: The thing that really changes, the thing that links these three time periods that we're talking about in the past with our present, is that what is mobilized is

23:58.644 --> 24:15.905 [AK]: class resentment, which in America mixes with race, but is mainly economic, but that that resentment is mobilized by people who are not of that class, right, who in the case of Munster aren't even from the area, not even close.

24:17.026 --> 24:32.798 [AK]: And so I think the thing to see here is how people who are not of that class, who don't even need to have that resentment, people who are well educated, who are well off, who don't even belong to that class remotely.

24:32.878 --> 24:39.342 [AK]: So like in the Russian Revolution, the Bolsheviks are vastly disproportionately Jewish in a country that is

24:40.464 --> 24:41.585 [AK]: not really at all Jewish.

24:42.426 --> 24:49.472 [AK]: In the French Revolution, the revolutionaries are vastly disproportionately well-educated lawyers.

24:49.612 --> 24:50.853 [AK]: Robespierre is a lawyer.

24:51.494 --> 24:53.515 [AK]: In the case of Münster, they're foreigners.

24:53.896 --> 25:01.482 [AK]: They largely come from the Netherlands, a place that is currently persecuting Anabaptists at that time instead of tolerating them as they will later.

25:02.103 --> 25:06.787 [AK]: And what happens then is that people who could be well-off

25:07.367 --> 25:16.510 [AK]: under the current regime understand that they will be much better off if they become the people in charge of a new regime, right?

25:16.530 --> 25:23.532 [AK]: So regime change cannot happen simply by virtue of class resentment or racial tension.

25:23.912 --> 25:26.032 [AK]: It needs something else to be added to the mixture.

25:26.653 --> 25:34.515 [JF]: Yeah, so when you have the power in the city, but you don't because the power in the city belongs to someone else, but you got the financial power in the city as a group,

25:35.575 --> 25:36.915 [JF]: You start to say, why aren't we in charge?

25:39.296 --> 25:42.197 [JF]: But before I got to that, I think there's some good motive.

25:42.217 --> 25:43.038 [JF]: There's a couple of names.

25:43.318 --> 25:45.058 [JF]: There's a Bernard, a Bernard, a John, and a John.

25:45.719 --> 25:48.439 [JF]: And all those guys kind of play a role in this story, right?

25:48.820 --> 25:49.580 [JF]: And it starts with…

25:50.526 --> 25:53.927 [JF]: I think he's one of the last to die, but he's one of the first – he's the writer.

25:53.947 --> 25:55.787 [JF]: He's the one that gets the printing press going and pulls everybody in.

25:55.807 --> 25:56.747 [JF]: I think that's Bernard Rothman.

25:56.767 --> 25:57.247 [JF]: Is that correct?

25:57.267 --> 25:58.288 [JF]: Does that sound right to you?

25:58.348 --> 25:58.808 [AK]: Yeah, that's right.

25:58.848 --> 25:58.988 [AK]: Yeah.

25:59.348 --> 26:06.609 [JF]: So talk about him and he's the one who, if there is something that's actually reformational at the start, maybe he seems to want to be that.

26:07.109 --> 26:07.629 [JF]: Is that correct?

26:07.749 --> 26:10.190 [JF]: Like he's got a good motive when he starts this thing off.

26:10.210 --> 26:11.530 [JF]: He's not like – Yeah, I would agree.

26:11.590 --> 26:15.651 [AK]: I mean I – Bernard, if things had gone differently, Bernhard Rothman would be –

26:16.371 --> 26:24.157 [AK]: would be known as the reformer of Münster, and Münster would be a sort of generically Lutheran city like so many others in Germany, right?

26:24.978 --> 26:30.462 [AK]: He would have reformed the churches, probably started schools that would teach Lutheran doctrine.

26:30.743 --> 26:31.723 [AK]: That was the idea.

26:32.304 --> 26:43.533 [AK]: I think something to understand about him as a man is that the capacity to use words is not in and of itself what we could describe as actual leadership capacity.

26:44.161 --> 26:49.386 [JF]: that is how i'm on i love it where you're telling it is to someone could talk to me they can lead

26:53.813 --> 27:10.784 [AK]: So he is not able to hold his own in the face of significant opposition, especially about the issue of marriage, which we'll get to, that he kind of gets swept along by that somewhat similar length.

27:11.085 --> 27:14.327 [JF]: I would say then also that the charisma is the other Bernard, right?

27:14.527 --> 27:15.427 [JF]: Whose last name I don't know.

27:15.447 --> 27:16.048 [JF]: What's his last name?

27:16.974 --> 27:17.675 [AK]: Nipper-dolling.

27:17.835 --> 27:18.496 [JF]: Nipper-dolling.

27:18.636 --> 27:20.218 [JF]: So you just got to think Christopher Walken.

27:20.538 --> 27:23.821 [JF]: Just imagine Christopher Walken as Gandalf, but evil, right?

27:24.182 --> 27:27.785 [JF]: And like Protestant street preaching all the time, right?

27:27.885 --> 27:32.130 [JF]: And he just wins the town to his what?

27:32.290 --> 27:32.710 [JF]: His media.

27:33.806 --> 27:34.046 [JF]: media.

27:34.166 --> 27:34.926 [JF]: I don't know what else to tell you.

27:35.326 --> 27:35.766 [JF]: It's rhetoric.

27:35.986 --> 27:36.927 [JF]: Oh, I wanted to say this earlier.

27:37.167 --> 27:43.808 [JF]: When you use preaching, it's important, again, I think, for those who aren't of the Christian background to say, so we say preaching as Christians, we really do mean rhetoric in a sense.

27:44.088 --> 27:46.308 [JF]: We mean God's rhetoric, so we're biased.

27:46.388 --> 27:49.809 [JF]: But it goes further back than, say, the Reformation.

27:50.529 --> 27:52.269 [JF]: You go back to what makes Rome, Rome.

27:52.669 --> 27:54.790 [JF]: It's that men were able to lead men with words.

27:55.130 --> 27:57.230 [JF]: That's what, you know, what did Alexander do?

27:57.510 --> 27:58.791 [JF]: He led men with words.

27:59.231 --> 28:00.611 [JF]: So in that then,

28:01.491 --> 28:03.514 [JF]: You have Bernard Rothman printing.

28:03.934 --> 28:10.984 [JF]: They were kind of officially trying to help Reformation get going, and you got this other guy who comes in and kind of declares himself prophet from God, right?

28:11.024 --> 28:14.689 [JF]: Starts having some phone calls with God in the afternoon and in the street and all that.

28:15.598 --> 28:22.865 [AK]: So, so caniper doling offers both direct prophecy, which is always very powerful.

28:23.326 --> 28:37.200 [AK]: And I think you see this tone, even when you don't have the theological stuff behind it, like when BLM just makes demands, right, or Marxists talk about the future as if they know exactly what it's going to be.

28:37.580 --> 28:46.908 [AK]: The issue here for historical purposes is not that they actually are right or something, or that they expect anyone to actually analyze what they're saying.

28:47.869 --> 28:57.498 [AK]: The point is that tone carries way more than anyone thinks, because everyone wants to think of themselves as a reasonable person, I'm not going to be taken in, I'm not gullible.

28:58.238 --> 29:02.502 [AK]: But tone can carry so much and it can carry crowds especially.

29:02.562 --> 29:14.731 [JF]: This is why I want to talk about Napoleon and I just want to ask you for your opinion on this because I think – I like talking to you because I think you have good insights and on particular levels, not everyone has always gotten to the point where they're like, how do I do this now?

29:15.211 --> 29:16.152 [JF]: And you might have gotten there.

29:16.192 --> 29:18.194 [JF]: So there's two stories really.

29:18.214 --> 29:22.757 [JF]: There's two stories out of history and I guess I'm going to tell the one about – is it – I forget who he is.

29:22.777 --> 29:23.358 [JF]: He's a general.

29:23.378 --> 29:24.318 [JF]: He's a Roman general.

29:25.119 --> 29:25.579 [JF]: Is it Cicero?

29:26.621 --> 29:27.021 [JF]: I can't remember.

29:27.041 --> 29:27.961 [JF]: It's not Sister, that's Bible.

29:28.982 --> 29:32.462 [JF]: In any case, I think he's losing to Caesar.

29:32.482 --> 29:32.823 [JF]: I can't remember.

29:32.843 --> 29:34.763 [JF]: It's out of one of the many Dan Carlin things I've listened to.

29:35.263 --> 29:36.083 [JF]: But he's on the run.

29:36.583 --> 29:37.284 [JF]: He's an old man.

29:37.324 --> 29:37.964 [JF]: He's in his 70s.

29:38.304 --> 29:39.424 [AK]: And he's- Talking about Pompey?

29:39.804 --> 29:41.685 [JF]: It might be, but I don't think it is Pompey.

29:42.065 --> 29:42.585 [JF]: I don't think it is.

29:42.865 --> 29:43.345 [JF]: He's on the run.

29:43.365 --> 29:43.985 [JF]: He's all alone.

29:44.025 --> 29:46.266 [JF]: He's in a safe house like Saddam Hussein was.

29:46.726 --> 29:50.147 [JF]: And one of the guys who's after him, a top-level commando assassin,

29:51.187 --> 29:52.008 [JF]: Finds him finally.

29:52.028 --> 29:53.650 [JF]: They've been after this guy for like a year, right?

29:53.991 --> 29:58.276 [JF]: They find him and he sits up in the middle of the night, looks him in the eye and he says, would you kill, and I can't remember his name.

29:58.477 --> 29:59.017 [JF]: He says his own name.

29:59.057 --> 30:00.399 [JF]: Would you kill his name?

30:00.439 --> 30:04.604 [JF]: And this guy who had so much fame and so much glory in his past, the guy ran away.

30:05.540 --> 30:06.741 [JF]: The other guy ran away.

30:06.981 --> 30:07.721 [JF]: He didn't kill him.

30:08.061 --> 30:10.702 [JF]: So Napoleon is in exile for having conquered the world.

30:11.222 --> 30:15.744 [JF]: He comes back from exile, gets off a boat, is met by a host of troops sent to put him under arrest.

30:16.145 --> 30:18.506 [JF]: They join him and he conquers the world again.

30:18.966 --> 30:19.846 [JF]: How do you do that?

30:20.606 --> 30:21.247 [JF]: I want to know.

30:22.227 --> 30:32.792 [JF]: For my own personal benevolent philanthropy, I want to know how you have that kind of, you said it very well in the way you described the word usage, right?

30:34.133 --> 30:36.634 [JF]: The carry of your language, that men hear you.

30:37.414 --> 30:38.334 [JF]: You speak and men listen.

30:39.374 --> 30:39.554 [AK]: Right.

30:40.034 --> 30:40.494 [AK]: Yeah.

30:40.574 --> 30:44.235 [AK]: And you indicate no doubt whatsoever about what you're doing.

30:44.335 --> 30:45.055 [AK]: Yes.

30:45.575 --> 30:56.357 [AK]: And so it becomes irrelevant whether or not you should doubt yourself, because once people don't doubt you, it really doesn't matter whether you have any concealed self-doubt.

30:56.918 --> 30:57.398 [AK]: That's over.

30:57.758 --> 30:58.638 [AK]: You're in charge now.

30:59.238 --> 31:00.458 [AK]: You get to have France back.

31:01.018 --> 31:03.339 [AK]: You get to survive, whatever it is that your objective is.

31:04.204 --> 31:09.766 [AK]: So I think that, you know, in the 16th century, that's obviously framed in terms of direct prophecy from God.

31:10.206 --> 31:15.308 [AK]: Even more powerful than reading the Bible for yourself in your own language is God just talks to me.

31:15.588 --> 31:16.188 [AK]: No big deal.

31:16.268 --> 31:16.848 [AK]: Straight up.

31:19.289 --> 31:25.771 [AK]: happens any time that you get like, I'm not going to analyze for you whether or not this or that is true.

31:25.791 --> 31:28.112 [AK]: I'm just going to report it to you, right?

31:28.392 --> 31:29.733 [AK]: Media works in the same way.

31:30.153 --> 31:40.697 [AK]: But with leaders, someone like Napoleon, the power of Napoleon, and this is why I think sometimes people, especially people that are slightly smarter than average, will console themselves with their IQ.

31:41.137 --> 31:43.178 [AK]: IQ honestly isn't that important

31:44.018 --> 31:48.600 [AK]: Was Napoleon, did Napoleon have as high of an IQ as, I don't know, Werner Heisenberg?

31:48.620 --> 31:49.981 [AK]: Does anyone even know who that is?

31:50.241 --> 31:51.001 [AK]: It doesn't matter.

31:51.141 --> 31:52.001 [AK]: I do.

31:52.362 --> 31:59.004 [AK]: Because he understands how people work and what is necessary to be done in that moment.

31:59.084 --> 32:00.365 [AK]: That's really all that matters.

32:00.385 --> 32:01.805 [JF]: That's what's so scary about Hitler.

32:01.945 --> 32:10.649 [JF]: I don't speak a lick of German, but I know enough to know that what he did was about how he talked.

32:11.744 --> 32:16.289 [JF]: It wasn't that his ideas were good ideas, at least the ones that we know were bad ones.

32:17.370 --> 32:19.832 [JF]: If the trains run on time, that's always a good idea no matter who does it.

32:20.393 --> 32:29.061 [JF]: But there was something about the way he could control the rhetoric, and this is where then bringing it forward to the present for a moment, why are we having this conversation?

32:29.101 --> 32:34.066 [JF]: Because the world around us is filled with rhetoric and we're trying to ask, what's the rhetoric I can trust?

32:34.921 --> 32:41.866 [JF]: especially, what, as Americans in a country that is at a juncture, I think.

32:41.886 --> 32:43.627 [JF]: I mean, we've been under, I don't know what to call it, Adam.

32:43.647 --> 32:44.008 [JF]: What do you think?

32:44.148 --> 32:46.850 [JF]: A communist intellectual attack.

32:47.270 --> 32:53.755 [JF]: The communist or the Marxist contagion has been attempting to level America since 30s, 30s at least.

32:54.295 --> 32:59.899 [JF]: And that's nothing new to us, but we're at a point where, again, it's being asked, it would seem very seriously,

33:01.040 --> 33:04.384 [JF]: And you and I at least are saying, well, we should think that one through, shouldn't we?

33:04.704 --> 33:05.926 [JF]: I mean, is that fair?

33:06.046 --> 33:06.406 [JF]: Is that right?

33:07.027 --> 33:16.777 [AK]: Yeah, I think America has always been very precarious because it's a place founded on the idea that we will actually talk to each other.

33:17.398 --> 33:19.901 [AK]: And that's a very dangerous venture to engage in.

33:19.941 --> 33:22.323 [AK]: It's why republics usually don't last that long.

33:24.244 --> 33:40.209 [AK]: And I think that when you look back in history, you have examples, the founders were using some of them, and they knew that this had happened to Rome, that Rome had turned into a government by Caesars, because at some point people couldn't understand each other anymore and control was not possible.

33:40.629 --> 33:50.632 [AK]: But if you look all the way back at ancient Greece, a good example is ancient Athens, which when it underwent a plague, like a real plague that actually killed a third of its population, not whatever percent,

33:51.252 --> 34:03.238 [AK]: when they underwent that plague and lost probably their greatest general ever, all of that held together at all because they were able to understand and to talk to each other and to therefore remain on the same page.

34:04.019 --> 34:10.062 [AK]: That wasn't actually finally as stable nearly as what Sparta was doing, which was just transparently

34:11.385 --> 34:12.906 [AK]: 10% of the population is going to be in charge of 90%.

34:13.547 --> 34:14.709 [AK]: That's the way we're going to run it.

34:14.809 --> 34:17.412 [AK]: Sparta lasted a lot longer and was a lot more coherent.

34:18.013 --> 34:21.597 [AK]: America was always precarious because we had to talk to each other.

34:21.797 --> 34:24.381 [JF]: Yeah, so it's fascism after all when it comes to Sparta, right?

34:24.401 --> 34:28.526 [JF]: You have to get the bundle of six to line up in the right way and it takes Nietzsche, the strongman, to do it.

34:29.625 --> 34:30.186 [JF]: Nothing new.

34:30.666 --> 34:30.986 [JF]: OK.

34:31.347 --> 34:37.373 [JF]: I don't know that we're going to try to answer what's an American to do, but I'm certainly going to point out that—let's say it this way.

34:37.693 --> 34:50.525 [JF]: What's a bishop prince to do when he's been exiled from his own city and a reformer intellectual and a prophet would-be have begun to take over and you have some of the wealthier Catholics moving away?

34:51.677 --> 34:52.017 [JF]: Fast.

34:54.878 --> 34:57.540 [JF]: Like New York City and Chicago and other places right now.

34:57.680 --> 34:59.040 [JF]: In fact, very much.

34:59.460 --> 34:59.660 [AK]: Right.

34:59.781 --> 35:05.543 [AK]: Cuomo remains in charge of burning parts of the Bronx and Brooklyn.

35:05.583 --> 35:07.104 [JF]: The bridges went up in Chicago.

35:07.424 --> 35:09.345 [JF]: The bridges went up in Chicago.

35:09.805 --> 35:10.965 [AK]: That's crazy.

35:10.985 --> 35:14.387 [AK]: For goodness sake, the county workers were told not to report to work.

35:14.427 --> 35:16.768 [AK]: That's really something in Chicago.

35:17.828 --> 35:31.296 [AK]: So I think that he wants to reclaim what belongs to him, because obviously when a regime is slipping away, they're not going to become enormously creative in their thinking and say, okay, we'll regroup and do this other thing for

35:32.578 --> 35:33.719 [AK]: 30 years and then come back.

35:33.979 --> 35:40.461 [AK]: He's going to go right back where he came from, which is why he goes back and he besieges the city, because what else is he going to do?

35:40.561 --> 35:48.124 [AK]: I mean, you have the same transparently sort of stupid, but potentially successful thing with Cuomo begging people to come back.

35:48.184 --> 35:50.405 [AK]: And I just drove off.

35:50.745 --> 35:52.046 [AK]: I drove off the East Coast.

35:52.806 --> 36:08.100 [AK]: two days ago, and the notable thing that you see is that all of the flyover rednecks that the people in the Northeast make fun of are the ones that always show up whenever they have a storm because they can't keep their own enormous conglomeration of people going.

36:08.420 --> 36:09.301 [AK]: Without that, it happened.

36:09.321 --> 36:15.547 [AK]: I lived in New York during Hurricane Sandy, and there were people with thick Southern accents giving us power back.

36:15.807 --> 36:16.427 [JF]: Yeah, right.

36:17.288 --> 36:20.230 [AK]: So Cuomo understands how precarious this is.

36:20.270 --> 36:24.854 [AK]: That's why he's begging people, as Pritzker does with Illinois, not to move somewhere else.

36:25.274 --> 36:25.515 [JF]: Yeah.

36:25.535 --> 36:26.415 [JF]: Life was even worse.

36:26.435 --> 36:27.956 [JF]: You know, this isn't us.

36:28.117 --> 36:29.498 [JF]: OK, we know what it is.

36:30.298 --> 36:31.259 [JF]: It is us.

36:31.739 --> 36:42.588 [JF]: And the moment you in a position of power are begging your people to, sorry, to follow you, no matter what it says on your title, you're not that person anymore.

36:42.608 --> 36:43.148 [AK]: Yeah, you're done.

36:43.529 --> 36:43.829 [JF]: You're over.

36:43.849 --> 36:44.449 [JF]: You've lost.

36:44.469 --> 36:44.750 [JF]: You're over.

36:45.330 --> 36:45.890 [JF]: Yeah.

36:46.010 --> 36:46.431 [JF]: Lame duck.

36:47.031 --> 36:47.551 [JF]: So okay.

36:48.011 --> 36:49.432 [JF]: Well, that happens to Bernard Rothman.

36:49.452 --> 36:50.433 [JF]: We'll leave him for now.

36:50.473 --> 36:51.953 [JF]: I mean, he just kind of gets it at the end.

36:52.373 --> 36:56.115 [JF]: Bernard Knipperdarling, what's up with the K-Ns?

36:56.175 --> 37:00.618 [JF]: That's like a Greek vocable coming in Germanic sounds.

37:02.178 --> 37:06.321 [JF]: He goes for a while, but eventually the prince bishop decides to siege the place.

37:06.922 --> 37:09.023 [JF]: They try a couple – I'm sorry.

37:09.043 --> 37:10.124 [JF]: I'm laughing at the story again.

37:10.164 --> 37:19.871 [JF]: Their first assault, they're going to get ready, but the German soldiers are so drunk, they think that the sun going down is the sun coming up, and they attack at the sun going down even though it's supposed to happen the next morning.

37:19.931 --> 37:23.194 [JF]: They completely botched the first attack, and it gets repelled.

37:23.514 --> 37:25.876 [JF]: So it ends up being a siege rather than a multiple attack.

37:26.636 --> 37:28.638 [JF]: Just kind of – so we don't have to revisit it later.

37:28.658 --> 37:44.715 [JF]: By the time this is over, it's taken long enough, the prince bishop has built a wall that apparently carts can drive on top of around the city on the outside with a no man's land between that a cannon cannot get across to make sure no one can escape, to make sure that whoever is left there by that point is going to die.

37:45.656 --> 37:46.137 [JF]: More or less.

37:47.017 --> 37:48.879 [JF]: It's intense, but we're not there yet.

37:49.039 --> 37:56.424 [JF]: We just got this fiery prophet starting to put some changes into place, holding things in common, removing properties.

37:56.824 --> 37:59.586 [JF]: The marriage stuff comes a little bit later, a little bit later.

37:59.766 --> 38:03.069 [AK]: Yeah, first they go with small C communism.

38:04.009 --> 38:10.271 [AK]: And this is all based on implementing ideology that they understood to be divinely sanctioned.

38:10.751 --> 38:22.795 [AK]: Again, whether or not you accept that or accept the Bible as a source for anything, the insight is that ideology, when it's put into practice, is going to have unforeseen consequences.

38:23.255 --> 38:27.777 [AK]: So one of the lies of Marxism is that it can predict the future.

38:28.297 --> 38:30.478 [AK]: that it knows exactly what's going to happen.

38:30.658 --> 38:33.539 [AK]: Christians also tend to believe this when they misinterpret the Bible.

38:33.579 --> 38:40.041 [AK]: They'll think, the Bible is going to tell me exactly what's going to happen with the United Nations or Russia or Palestine or something.

38:40.482 --> 38:46.124 [AK]: So you kind of over-determine what's going to happen in the future, and then the future always surprises you.

38:46.764 --> 39:05.216 [AK]: So they implement communism that's basically a way to take what belongs to an upper class that is not firmly ideologically belonging to the new regime and give it to a mass of people that are overwhelming in the city, in the besieged city.

39:05.597 --> 39:12.241 [AK]: So what has also happened is that in addition to the natives, you have lots of people who have heard a prophecy

39:12.601 --> 39:15.282 [AK]: that Munster is the new Jerusalem.

39:15.882 --> 39:17.703 [AK]: It's the site of God's kingdom on earth.

39:18.323 --> 39:25.965 [AK]: And they therefore come, including the two guys who are going to be really religiously determinative from here on out.

39:26.325 --> 39:28.146 [JF]: Can I jump in?

39:28.166 --> 39:32.347 [JF]: This is like a solid two centuries before Ellen White and Joseph Smith.

39:32.667 --> 39:36.448 [JF]: Just so y'all know, there's a long and glorious history of this.

39:36.928 --> 39:41.610 [JF]: Just say the world's going to end in this city, I swear it, and stand there for a year and a half and you will have people.

39:42.190 --> 39:42.930 [JF]: People will show up.

39:42.990 --> 39:43.990 [JF]: They will have people.

39:44.611 --> 39:51.172 [AK]: Right, especially, and this is why I said the stuff about like, please do not be shocked when you see plenty of new cults in the 2020s.

39:51.552 --> 39:52.312 [AK]: Oh, absolutely.

39:52.612 --> 40:07.055 [AK]: Because when people are alienated, when people are miserable, when people have nothing to work for, nothing to live for, you're going to see lots of childless people who are going to be in my generation, who are going to be in their 40s and contemplating either joining a cult or committing suicide soon.

40:07.455 --> 40:09.155 [JF]: You can do both at the same time sometimes.

40:09.215 --> 40:10.696 [AK]: Yeah, I don't, right, exactly.

40:12.216 --> 40:14.476 [AK]: my eyes are not at all wild and saying these things.

40:14.877 --> 40:20.818 [AK]: I feel like this is like predicting the sun will come up when, when you have that, they will flee to whatever offers opportunity.

40:20.838 --> 40:22.358 [AK]: And that's exactly what happens with Munster.

40:22.738 --> 40:25.999 [AK]: People stream from all over the German speaking lands.

40:26.019 --> 40:30.539 [AK]: When they hear this prophecy that this is the place that Christ is going to rule directly on earth.

40:30.980 --> 40:32.560 [AK]: This is, this is where everything's happening.

40:32.580 --> 40:35.720 [JF]: You think it was hard to fact check the fake news back then, right now, right?

40:36.201 --> 40:37.981 [JF]: Like back then you heard like, wait a minute,

40:38.741 --> 40:40.102 [JF]: Four days journey away.

40:40.162 --> 40:42.464 [JF]: I have to sell everything I own, just leave it behind.

40:42.905 --> 40:45.607 [JF]: The world's going to end and it's paradise already because they took over the city.

40:45.627 --> 40:46.268 [JF]: They're giving out food.

40:46.808 --> 40:47.809 [JF]: Hey, I'm there.

40:48.250 --> 40:49.551 [JF]: You know, let's go kids, you know?

40:50.051 --> 40:55.015 [JF]: And so he swells with this group of, of again, peasantry that by the end, this is what's so sad.

40:55.056 --> 40:56.337 [JF]: It is like Hitler at the end of the day.

40:56.357 --> 40:59.379 [JF]: They don't actually kill the peasants that come to help them, but they do.

40:59.920 --> 41:00.340 [JF]: They do.

41:00.420 --> 41:04.364 [JF]: They die the same way because this kind of, this kind of order,

41:05.680 --> 41:11.924 [JF]: that breeds other chaos cannot be allowed by the orders above it to stand, and so it will be stopped.

41:11.944 --> 41:17.067 [JF]: I'm going to jump topics here for a second to Seattle, Portland.

41:18.067 --> 41:30.094 [JF]: The big difference right there in this civil war that Antifa has declared as against the US, which has not declared the war back against them, is that the US is not shooting its enemy combatants.

41:31.355 --> 41:33.256 [JF]: It's in fact just ignoring them.

41:34.477 --> 41:37.258 [JF]: That's pretty weird, frankly, historically.

41:37.298 --> 41:39.918 [JF]: I'm not saying like advocating a moral answer here.

41:40.318 --> 41:45.340 [JF]: I'm saying that that's an enigma in the history of humanity, and I wouldn't expect it to stick around.

41:45.820 --> 41:50.421 [JF]: And I would expect that when it doesn't stick around, whoever pulls the trigger at that point is in top.

41:50.501 --> 41:51.981 [JF]: They're not letting go at that point.

41:52.021 --> 42:00.183 [JF]: So if you want to push it, I think there's a ploy myself to get federal troops to open fire on Antifa so they can point at it and then it can cause an uprising, right?

42:00.983 --> 42:06.024 [JF]: But if you really want that, if you really want that, I think the military is not going to let Antifa take over the country.

42:06.224 --> 42:06.904 [JF]: I just don't see it.

42:06.944 --> 42:08.824 [JF]: Maybe they've infiltrated to the highest levels.

42:09.124 --> 42:09.445 [JF]: I don't know.

42:09.865 --> 42:14.985 [JF]: But the order that's above cares a lot more about its money than you get in your way.

42:15.906 --> 42:22.607 [JF]: And when the upper class can manage the mob, they're quite happy to lead you by the nose and get you to do their work for them.

42:22.947 --> 42:24.307 [JF]: They're not going to let you in their doors.

42:25.107 --> 42:26.988 [JF]: And that's pretty clear I think across the board, right?

42:28.168 --> 42:28.588 [AK]: Historically.

42:29.708 --> 42:29.908 [AK]: Right.

42:29.969 --> 42:45.388 [AK]: I mean, I think when you when you see these kind of movements when you see mobilization of people, especially mobilization for violence, I mean it happens, obviously it happens in the Russian Revolution, French Revolution, and it happens in Munster to I mean, one of the reasons they're going to go to polygamy is because of the enormous number of

42:46.129 --> 42:46.910 [AK]: dead men.

42:47.871 --> 42:52.235 [AK]: So women come to outnumber men by an enormous percentage.

42:52.776 --> 42:55.698 [AK]: When that happens, people don't get mobilized.

42:56.459 --> 42:59.182 [AK]: There is basically no such thing as grassroots.

42:59.622 --> 43:00.423 [AK]: Let me say it that way.

43:00.843 --> 43:01.924 [AK]: There are grassroots

43:03.105 --> 43:09.890 [AK]: instincts, there might be commonly shared if the people have history, maybe like this is what we do in this situation.

43:10.170 --> 43:16.073 [AK]: But if you talk about mobilizing alienated people who don't know each other, there's no such thing as grassroots.

43:16.193 --> 43:16.394 [AK]: No.

43:16.614 --> 43:18.715 [JF]: It brings it back to that, the rhetoric and the story.

43:18.995 --> 43:24.338 [JF]: And then another thought that I want to just get out there, there's a couple of terms that we're going to be using, I think, over and over again.

43:24.879 --> 43:29.562 [JF]: One of them is that lizard man idea, at least, which I want to connect to the idea of a Yankee, honestly.

43:30.342 --> 43:44.931 [JF]: Not about per se an ethnicity, but similar to that is this idea of a tribe, and we've batted this kind of back and forth conceptually already, but I want to see if I can pin it down in a way that you agree with, that a tribe, they are a group of people that see something the same way.

43:45.811 --> 43:49.494 [JF]: And in our fallen condition, I think generally what they see in the same way is their vulnerability.

43:50.294 --> 43:53.357 [JF]: So a tribe is a group of people who agree they're vulnerable in the same way.

43:53.738 --> 44:01.546 [JF]: They believe the story about that vulnerability and their fear generally will enable them to unite against a common threat of some kind.

44:02.126 --> 44:09.314 [JF]: Christianity, I think in its orthodox form when believed is different, but by and large human organizations function this way whenever they come together.

44:09.594 --> 44:10.735 [JF]: Families, too, largely.

44:11.815 --> 44:13.496 [AK]: Yeah, I mean, I do agree with that.

44:14.036 --> 44:25.002 [AK]: And I think that it explains it explains a political reality in the modern United States, which is that there's really only one racial group that is politically divided, and that is whites.

44:25.782 --> 44:26.742 [AK]: when it comes to voting.

44:27.202 --> 44:35.165 [AK]: Only whites actually disagree with each other, which is also why I think the political story of the past five years is it's not even Trump.

44:35.545 --> 44:41.947 [AK]: It is the rise of political activism and especially a sort of anti-white fervor by whites.

44:44.048 --> 44:46.028 [JF]: Are you talking about white fragility by any chance?

44:47.429 --> 44:47.569 [AK]: Right.

44:47.749 --> 44:51.310 [AK]: I'm talking about the fact that like that book is anything other than a joke.

44:52.574 --> 44:56.838 [JF]: But you're actually talking about what that book I think is trying to claim, which is that we are fragile.

44:57.839 --> 45:04.005 [JF]: We are in fact cracked against ourselves because of the guilt we carry, which ought to be repaired.

45:04.025 --> 45:05.446 [JF]: I think the book would claim that also.

45:06.067 --> 45:08.750 [JF]: And again, this is all just based on everyone else's talk about it.

45:09.190 --> 45:19.113 [JF]: But I think it's a good way of describing the fact that if you are white in America, when it comes to your ability to discuss these issues, you are in a fragile place.

45:19.874 --> 45:25.235 [JF]: You have to double watch your lips on every side because you're accused before you've even spoken and it's assumed.

45:25.535 --> 45:30.557 [JF]: In fact, it's even taught you're racist for being white, which again, everyone knows the relativist answer to that.

45:30.577 --> 45:32.438 [JF]: I mean it's just a nonsense statement, right?

45:32.478 --> 45:33.258 [JF]: It's nonsense to begin with.

45:33.578 --> 45:36.099 [JF]: And yet because it's said often and loud enough, it becomes the truth.

45:36.639 --> 45:40.740 [JF]: And that's a weird thing, again, to see happening, because all rights are violated when any are.

45:40.800 --> 45:41.800 [JF]: Let's jump there.

45:41.860 --> 45:42.320 [JF]: But yeah.

45:42.940 --> 45:53.142 [AK]: So I would say, I mean, the book, I think, teaches essentially that being white, which is not finally anything different from whiteness, being white is original sin.

45:53.402 --> 45:55.022 [AK]: That is the actual problem.

45:55.722 --> 46:04.304 [AK]: And fragility is the same thing as resistance in kind of fundamentalist Christianity, resistance to revivalist preaching.

46:04.804 --> 46:04.944 [AK]: Right.

46:05.345 --> 46:13.593 [AK]: So what Robin DiAngelo is basically is just a revivalist, except she gets paid a lot by corporations instead of taking up an offering and a tent.

46:14.214 --> 46:18.238 [JF]: She's a revivalist, but a rhetorician trying to make their way for polis and power.

46:18.258 --> 46:19.119 [JF]: I mean, it's all the same.

46:19.139 --> 46:19.680 [JF]: It's all show.

46:19.760 --> 46:20.340 [AK]: It's all show.

46:20.360 --> 46:20.541 [AK]: Right.

46:21.161 --> 46:32.636 [AK]: Right, so I would say like your definition of tribe is helpful, because what you can see is that whites, because they certainly are not permitted by the media that goes into their, into their minds.

46:33.457 --> 46:38.523 [AK]: They are not permitted to be a tribe or to have interests, because we're not everybody else because we're not vulnerable.

46:39.384 --> 46:40.625 [JF]: So they think, yes.

46:41.006 --> 46:41.867 [JF]: That's the story though.

46:42.007 --> 46:42.447 [AK]: That is the story.

46:42.467 --> 46:44.389 [AK]: Everyone else is allowed to be a tribe.

46:45.110 --> 46:46.891 [JF]: I'm so privileged that I'm not vulnerable.

46:47.352 --> 46:47.932 [JF]: That's the story.

46:48.353 --> 46:49.434 [JF]: Simply because I grew up white.

46:49.794 --> 46:53.437 [JF]: And I'll admit, I'm definitely privileged in the sense that my family,

46:54.258 --> 46:58.402 [JF]: They were kind of lower middle class and their family before them was lower class.

46:58.562 --> 47:04.847 [JF]: And for generations, these Germanic and or Norse farmers worked their way up so I could go to college.

47:05.948 --> 47:07.469 [JF]: And I still had to work my way through college.

47:07.950 --> 47:08.850 [JF]: I consider that a privilege.

47:09.291 --> 47:11.212 [JF]: It taught me to value what I was doing.

47:11.253 --> 47:12.614 [JF]: So there's no question I'm privileged.

47:12.814 --> 47:14.555 [JF]: The question is, is privilege bad?

47:14.856 --> 47:18.699 [JF]: Is it bad to have something good and then to use it for more good?

47:20.320 --> 47:22.121 [JF]: or to turn into a liability.

47:22.621 --> 47:26.882 [JF]: So, and again, the idea that because I've had those privileges, I'm never going to be vulnerable.

47:26.942 --> 47:27.742 [JF]: You got to be kidding me.

47:28.162 --> 47:28.642 [JF]: You got to be kidding me.

47:28.662 --> 47:29.523 [JF]: This life is so dangerous.

47:29.543 --> 47:35.364 [JF]: Trying to raise just a couple of kids safely and, and with, with love in the home, all of us know how tough that is.

47:35.824 --> 47:39.725 [JF]: So to pretend that some of us are so privileged that, I mean, even the wealthy, they're, they're more afraid than the rest of us.

47:39.745 --> 47:40.325 [JF]: That's a different story.

47:40.526 --> 47:41.006 [JF]: You go, you go.

47:41.186 --> 47:47.227 [AK]: Well, privilege, privilege makes the work of your ancestors sound arbitrary.

47:47.467 --> 47:48.848 [JF]: Or like, or even bad.

47:49.668 --> 47:52.471 [JF]: Like it was bad, but they helped, you know?

47:52.491 --> 47:52.691 [AK]: Yes.

47:53.471 --> 48:02.499 [AK]: And I would say that both the positive work that my ancestors did and also the negative things that they did in their life are both present in my life.

48:03.080 --> 48:16.331 [AK]: So the notion of privilege, especially when conceived simply racially, especially in a country in which whites pay the vast majority of taxes, like we don't make a profit off the federal government as a racial category.

48:17.580 --> 48:28.651 [AK]: In such a country to describe our existence as privileged is simply absurd, especially when I am a net contributor to other racial groups while being via my taxes.

48:29.562 --> 48:35.924 [AK]: It also makes the past sound arbitrary, meaningless, pointless, or generally evil.

48:36.704 --> 48:39.565 [AK]: And that is just not a coherent way to look at the past.

48:39.865 --> 48:45.006 [AK]: From the past, you have both really amazing things that come down to you, the invention of electricity.

48:45.586 --> 48:51.828 [AK]: Also, you have really awful things that come down to you, like your grandfather or your father's drinking problem, let's say.

48:52.369 --> 48:57.278 [AK]: You have to deal with both those things on a societal level and a family level.

48:57.779 --> 49:00.644 [AK]: So I can't describe any of that as privilege.

49:01.065 --> 49:04.511 [AK]: It's not like an arbitrary hall pass that I received at birth.

49:05.569 --> 49:08.390 [AK]: It's the good things and the bad things that happened in the past.

49:08.650 --> 49:10.910 [JF]: I saw a video of a guy, African-American guy, um, black guy.

49:10.930 --> 49:12.251 [JF]: I don't even know what we're supposed to call him.

49:12.271 --> 49:15.891 [JF]: Can I, do I have to capitalize B when I say black or can I just say black?

49:16.312 --> 49:24.334 [AK]: Well, I, I, I, I hate the term African-American because Jesse Jackson basically forced it on us in a press conference in the 1980s.

49:24.474 --> 49:27.094 [AK]: That's just, that's just, that's stupid.

49:27.454 --> 49:28.054 [AK]: That's stupid.

49:28.354 --> 49:29.595 [AK]: If I'm white, you're black.

49:29.955 --> 49:30.475 [AK]: No big deal.

49:30.655 --> 49:30.855 [JF]: Yeah.

49:30.915 --> 49:31.836 [JF]: And it's not a big deal.

49:31.956 --> 49:32.316 [JF]: Whatever.

49:32.736 --> 49:36.219 [JF]: Um, I saw it was a video of a guy talking about how he got pulled over.

49:36.559 --> 49:40.641 [JF]: He had, um, some paper plates, you know, and he's like, I'm not gonna make excuses.

49:40.681 --> 49:41.842 [JF]: I got pulled over, but it was all legal.

49:41.882 --> 49:42.402 [JF]: I just had to wait.

49:42.863 --> 49:47.906 [JF]: And I saw this lady and she's, she's pulled over across the street and she's videotaping me and the cop.

49:48.566 --> 49:50.747 [JF]: And I realized she was just looking out for me.

49:51.228 --> 49:51.908 [JF]: I thought that was great.

49:52.148 --> 49:52.789 [JF]: That was really cool.

49:53.069 --> 49:53.209 [JF]: Right?

49:53.229 --> 49:58.993 [JF]: So, so in all of this, like that's like 98% of us out there, honestly, just like, can we just get on with our lives on this thing?

49:59.813 --> 50:01.514 [JF]: and stop being set against each other.

50:02.275 --> 50:21.069 [JF]: Instead, be set against the bad ideas, which have the consequences that destroy our lives, which is where when you make America about white or black right now and not about Marxism versus capitalism versus say, I don't know, crony capitalism, whatever you want to call, whatever the Republicans are actually doing when they give them power, that is not what the platform is, whatever that is.

50:23.840 --> 50:36.862 [AK]: I think that America has to be understood not as historically unique, like nothing bad will ever happen here, or that it's uniquely evil somehow and no other society has ever had bad things happen in its past.

50:37.323 --> 50:50.245 [AK]: But America is unique in this sense that no other place has ever been this large with this much of a pie at stake to be grabbed by different people with a society this diverse.

50:51.505 --> 50:53.346 [AK]: And that is unique.

50:53.987 --> 50:56.909 [AK]: And it is, I think, therefore, uniquely difficult.

50:57.209 --> 51:00.832 [JF]: Because the British Empire was still an ethnic empire at the end of the day.

51:01.352 --> 51:04.634 [JF]: And the American Empire is, in theory, not, right?

51:04.694 --> 51:05.455 [JF]: In theory, not.

51:05.955 --> 51:08.637 [JF]: Although Yankee might just be an ethnicity.

51:09.158 --> 51:12.180 [JF]: But we got to make sure we try to finish Munster today.

51:12.200 --> 51:12.920 [JF]: Yeah, sure.

51:14.201 --> 51:21.046 [JF]: Where we left off there, Jan van Nipper Nipper starts the can.

51:21.066 --> 51:22.407 [JF]: No, it's Bernard.

51:22.547 --> 51:23.047 [JF]: Bernard Nipper.

51:23.067 --> 51:23.548 [AK]: That's Bernard.

51:23.728 --> 51:24.428 [JF]: Yeah, that's Bernard.

51:24.449 --> 51:25.449 [JF]: So he's Christopher Walken.

51:25.469 --> 51:29.632 [JF]: He's your crazy old kind of psycho prophet.

51:30.413 --> 51:33.015 [JF]: We'll let him walk around for a while, but they start doing the communism thing.

51:33.035 --> 51:38.259 [JF]: They start doing basically a repatriation of property, moving stuff around, although the people at top are getting more.

51:39.164 --> 51:42.307 [JF]: But because of the siege, food is running out.

51:42.908 --> 51:43.929 [JF]: The poor are not eating as much.

51:43.949 --> 51:47.092 [JF]: They're starting to do things like eat cats and other animals they can find.

51:47.733 --> 51:48.974 [JF]: And they are training militarily.

51:48.994 --> 51:49.995 [JF]: There's all that kind of stuff going on.

51:50.355 --> 51:55.741 [JF]: But it gets to a point where things are looking kind of bad, like they're going to have some trouble.

51:55.921 --> 51:57.522 [JF]: And Nipperdaling has a vision.

51:58.323 --> 52:00.843 [JF]: At that point, you know, hallelujah.

52:00.863 --> 52:05.264 [JF]: They believe the world's going to end on Easter, by the way, which is like, what, three weeks away, several months away, something like that.

52:05.284 --> 52:06.985 [JF]: They're all trying to get to Easter because Jesus will come back.

52:07.405 --> 52:13.286 [JF]: But anyway, he decides that he's been told to ride out almost single-handedly and fight the army and win.

52:13.886 --> 52:22.827 [JF]: And this is where you kind of know he's not a charlatan, maybe, is that he rides out and just gets butchered, just gets destroyed by the army.

52:23.468 --> 52:25.168 [JF]: They bring hundreds of men against a couple of guys.

52:26.365 --> 52:28.067 [JF]: So everyone inside the city is like, what's going on?

52:28.207 --> 52:28.347 [JF]: Right?

52:28.367 --> 52:30.509 [JF]: A couple of days go by and not sure what's going on.

52:30.809 --> 52:33.652 [JF]: There's another character named, uh, Yon, Von.

52:34.293 --> 52:34.833 [JF]: Who am I going to get?

52:34.873 --> 52:35.514 [JF]: Who steps up next?

52:35.574 --> 52:35.894 [JF]: It's it.

52:37.035 --> 52:39.277 [AK]: So you were, you were just talking about Yon Mathis.

52:39.398 --> 52:39.918 [AK]: Oh, I did.

52:39.998 --> 52:40.819 [AK]: I jumped ahead, didn't I?

52:41.219 --> 52:43.942 [JF]: How's Yon Mathis come in from Bernard Nipperdaling then?

52:44.002 --> 52:44.643 [JF]: Where's that happen?

52:45.327 --> 52:50.110 [AK]: Matthias comes at the same time as von Leiden, whom you're about to talk about.

52:50.270 --> 52:54.052 [AK]: They're both refugees, Anabaptist refugees from elsewhere.

52:54.313 --> 52:54.513 [JF]: Right.

52:54.533 --> 52:55.894 [JF]: So they're the foreigners who come in.

52:56.514 --> 52:56.674 [AK]: Right.

52:57.054 --> 53:00.136 [JF]: So then talk about the first Jan Matthias, though.

53:00.176 --> 53:00.997 [JF]: What's his role?

53:02.301 --> 53:05.782 [AK]: His role is as a kind of a prophet.

53:06.382 --> 53:09.983 [AK]: He has picked up a lot of ideas in various places.

53:10.883 --> 53:25.387 [AK]: He's wandered into different cities and he's wound up in Munster and has received a vision that he is a second Gideon, who's a character in the biblical book of Judges, that can go against God's enemies with very small numbers in order to prove God's might.

53:25.787 --> 53:26.707 [JF]: Right, right.

53:27.047 --> 53:28.868 [JF]: So then I was thinking that was Nipperdaling.

53:28.888 --> 53:29.928 [JF]: So then who's Nipperdaling?

53:30.888 --> 53:41.015 [AK]: Nipper Dowling is actually, I think, much shrewder than that in the sense that Nipper Dowling both has some prophetic activity, but is mainly involved in keeping the government running.

53:41.355 --> 53:47.079 [AK]: So Nipper Dowling is more like an unsuccessful Lenin figure than he is a sort of visionary Trotsky.

53:47.240 --> 53:52.864 [JF]: And now, jumping to the end, so is Bernard Mathis, who actually does get away, right?

53:52.924 --> 53:54.064 [JF]: He ends up not being killed.

53:54.685 --> 53:55.205 [JF]: Is that correct?

53:55.966 --> 53:59.328 [JF]: One of them leaves the city and kind of vanishes and we don't really know what happens to him.

53:59.348 --> 54:00.269 [JF]: Does that sound right?

54:00.936 --> 54:07.998 [AK]: That's a, I believe that's a fifth guy because Nippert, Don Rotman and Von Leiden are all going to be put in cages.

54:08.278 --> 54:08.458 [JF]: Yeah.

54:08.498 --> 54:09.378 [JF]: There's three at the end.

54:10.279 --> 54:11.759 [AK]: And Mathis is dead.

54:11.859 --> 54:12.559 [AK]: He's just dead already.

54:13.099 --> 54:14.880 [AK]: Mathis dies on Easter when he rides out.

54:15.100 --> 54:15.500 [JF]: That's right.

54:15.820 --> 54:16.220 [JF]: Oh, that's right.

54:16.280 --> 54:17.201 [JF]: Because he rides out that day.

54:17.301 --> 54:17.481 [JF]: Right.

54:17.601 --> 54:18.781 [JF]: Oh, the cages, the cages.

54:18.901 --> 54:19.361 [JF]: It's so crazy.

54:19.421 --> 54:19.621 [JF]: Okay.

54:20.021 --> 54:20.221 [JF]: Okay.

54:20.622 --> 54:20.742 [JF]: Yeah.

54:20.782 --> 54:21.842 [JF]: Bernard, Bernard, John and John.

54:21.942 --> 54:24.383 [JF]: I mean, it is, it is kind of, kind of tough to keep them all straight.

54:24.403 --> 54:25.223 [AK]: It's very confusing.

54:26.004 --> 54:30.467 [JF]: I want to jump ahead to after he rides out, single-handedly, the Gideon of the Lord to be just destroyed.

54:30.487 --> 54:31.387 [JF]: And everyone's freaked out.

54:31.408 --> 54:35.290 [JF]: But then there's this other guy, Van Lyden, John Van Lyden, who's young.

54:35.330 --> 54:36.171 [JF]: He's a tailor.

54:36.291 --> 54:39.293 [JF]: He's kind of suave and good-looking as opposed to old and creepy-looking.

54:40.033 --> 54:42.455 [JF]: And he's been on their side for a while.

54:42.755 --> 54:45.216 [JF]: He's been part of the polygamy thing already, I think, right?

54:45.637 --> 54:50.280 [JF]: And within two days, he is revealing that he is the new visionary prophet of God.

54:50.320 --> 54:51.801 [JF]: He's married the other guy's wife.

54:52.481 --> 54:57.883 [JF]: And he set himself up as the replacement, which everyone seems pretty cool with that.

54:58.243 --> 55:07.646 [JF]: But then within a few more weeks, there's this hobbled goldsmith who presents him with like a ball and a sword and like tells him to rule the world and he becomes king.

55:07.686 --> 55:08.607 [JF]: So all of this happens.

55:08.747 --> 55:09.927 [JF]: I mean, what is the timeline of this?

55:10.127 --> 55:11.728 [JF]: How long does it take for these things to take place?

55:12.318 --> 55:17.960 [AK]: You're talking really matters of months with any of these earth-shaking changes.

55:18.440 --> 55:20.081 [AK]: Now men can have multiple wives.

55:20.541 --> 55:25.663 [AK]: Now this guy who was a journeyman tailor is the true king of Israel and Zion's king.

55:26.123 --> 55:32.486 [AK]: So another thing to see is how once people are under the sway of something, how

55:33.246 --> 55:41.654 [AK]: quickly they become people and groups of people that they never imagined being before, that they never would have even thought six months prior.

55:42.195 --> 55:50.903 [AK]: Because eventually you're getting basically, I mean, I would describe it as like live action role-playing, live action role-playing the Old Testament in Munster.

55:54.355 --> 55:55.076 [JF]: That's about right.

55:55.957 --> 56:05.571 [JF]: Just with the LARP idea, it reminded me of this spread that was done of these Antifa activists for a magazine where they're all like showing off their riot gear and it's all like spray painted colors and stuff.

56:05.612 --> 56:07.514 [JF]: And it's just like, it's LARP.

56:07.715 --> 56:09.878 [JF]: I mean, and it's scary because it's not.

56:10.939 --> 56:16.584 [AK]: Right, because LARPing is only LARPing until you do it enough, and then you just are that thing.

56:16.764 --> 56:16.984 [JF]: Yeah.

56:17.024 --> 56:36.261 [AK]: Like, Antifa is a term taken from German politics, and it first comes up, not in the 1930s, but in the 1920s, when right after World War I, you have these street clashes between largely veteran groups that are right wing of various kinds, fighting in the streets of cities with left wing groups,

56:36.721 --> 56:41.204 [AK]: those left-wing groups will go on to form the nucleus of anti-fascist action.

56:41.524 --> 56:45.927 [AK]: That's where Antifa, which is like the German way to say that abbreviation, comes from.

56:46.768 --> 56:54.433 [AK]: It's only LARPing until it's not, because that gets imitated then in different places, and especially in Seattle in the 90s.

56:55.914 --> 56:59.237 [AK]: protesting the World Trade Organization, no one remembers this stuff.

56:59.717 --> 57:02.039 [AK]: Occupy Wall Street, nobody even remembers that.

57:02.640 --> 57:08.124 [AK]: These Black Bloc tactics are pioneered for the modern age in those places.

57:08.685 --> 57:09.605 [AK]: Now it's real.

57:10.046 --> 57:12.268 [AK]: Now, you know, there's autonomous zones.

57:12.688 --> 57:15.630 [AK]: Now there's, you know, there's Portland as it is now.

57:16.391 --> 57:21.336 [AK]: So LARPing is only LARPing until it's not, and eventually it becomes serious and you have a real threat on you.

57:21.396 --> 57:22.497 [JF]: It's a real-life consequence.

57:23.458 --> 57:35.270 [JF]: So what happens in Munster is that they're pretending that the Old Testament is them, not through Jesus Christ's faith alone, Word and Sacrament, New Testament doctrine, but through, instead, what?

57:36.872 --> 57:37.732 [JF]: What do you call this?

57:37.752 --> 57:39.013 [JF]: You read a story, you assume it's about you.

57:39.133 --> 57:39.673 [JF]: Narcissism.

57:39.693 --> 57:42.655 [JF]: It's assumed that they're going to adopt and live with all these things.

57:42.695 --> 57:48.037 [JF]: Now, it doesn't matter whether you're putting your faith in the mythology of Christianity, if you want to call it that, or whether it's the mythology of some other system.

57:48.758 --> 57:53.240 [JF]: We all tell ourselves these stories about how we're going to get together and make all the world great again somehow.

57:54.080 --> 58:04.152 [JF]: And in those stories, we find the war for power, and again, this show is about learning to listen carefully enough to the story to find out where the real power is because you're not going to get rid of the power.

58:04.632 --> 58:06.054 [JF]: The problem has never been power.

58:06.094 --> 58:11.680 [JF]: The problem has been fallen men or broken men or sinful men or chaotically evolved men, whatever you want to call it, men who are self-driven.

58:12.441 --> 58:14.102 [JF]: and who don't see the other men around them.

58:14.122 --> 58:15.742 [JF]: If you think that's a survival tactic, great.

58:16.082 --> 58:18.403 [JF]: I think it's a mistake, but it's going to get fixed in Christ.

58:18.884 --> 58:23.625 [JF]: The point here is to discern the difference and not be duped, not be duped in our present age.

58:23.665 --> 58:26.587 [JF]: Because whether you're a Christian or not, I want to live in a free society with you.

58:28.087 --> 58:28.327 [JF]: You know?

58:28.787 --> 58:30.688 [JF]: And that's a large part of what this is about.

58:31.929 --> 58:33.049 [JF]: I want to throw it back at you.

58:33.069 --> 58:34.289 [JF]: Do you have a little more time today?

58:34.309 --> 58:35.250 [JF]: Can we keep going for a little bit?

58:36.490 --> 58:36.890 [AK]: Yeah, go ahead.

58:36.910 --> 58:37.311 [JF]: All right.

58:37.591 --> 58:37.851 [JF]: So then,

58:39.133 --> 58:41.073 [JF]: Fast forward, real consequences.

58:41.213 --> 58:45.875 [JF]: In Monster, people are starving and it's not just eating, like, leather now.

58:46.495 --> 58:49.695 [JF]: They're exhuming dead bodies to eat them.

58:50.276 --> 58:50.496 [JF]: Right?

58:50.876 --> 58:57.197 [JF]: Meanwhile, Jon Van Lyden of the Golden Sword or whatever, you know, he's got like 13 wives and is eating well.

58:58.137 --> 59:00.778 [JF]: He keeps preaching Easter's coming, Easter's coming, Easter's coming.

59:01.578 --> 59:03.580 [JF]: Finally, though, there's a betrayal.

59:03.620 --> 59:08.723 [JF]: They have this whole plan to get more people to come and one of the guys ends up getting caught and then flipping and then flipping again.

59:08.784 --> 59:09.964 [JF]: It's kind of cool.

59:10.605 --> 59:20.052 [JF]: But he ends up letting the Prince Bishop know that there's a point right now in the city where there is no way they can repel you if you attack.

59:20.092 --> 59:22.313 [JF]: They send in a group through a secret way.

59:22.553 --> 59:27.777 [JF]: They take up a spot in the middle of the city and eventually the Prince Bishop's people come in.

59:27.997 --> 59:28.638 [JF]: There's a big fight.

59:29.418 --> 59:37.926 [JF]: Uh, again, I think there's somebody else who's a fairly famous name, um, who ends up dying in that fight in the middle of the city, but these three guys get captured by the Prince Bishop.

59:38.387 --> 59:40.129 [JF]: And there's a couple of pieces that come out of this.

59:40.149 --> 59:41.530 [JF]: I'm gonna let you talk about the cages.

59:41.550 --> 59:46.635 [JF]: I mean, he raises the city's defenses to the ground and they're not rebuilt.

59:46.975 --> 59:47.836 [JF]: It's his city.

59:49.358 --> 59:49.998 [JF]: He was mad.

59:51.283 --> 01:00:19.133 [AK]: Oh my gosh, but these three guys, their punishment, you can see their bodies today, or at least the cages in which their bodies- You can see where they hung, because they are executed, and then their bodies are put in cages that are then raised up on the side of a church, and the cages are still there, the bodies obviously have decomposed, but they're left there in perpetuity as a perpetual memorial of what happens when you revolt against the Prince Bishop.

01:00:20.094 --> 01:00:23.757 [AK]: And again, say what you will, that is simply transparency.

01:00:24.757 --> 01:00:29.421 [AK]: We do not do that with the people whose memories and whose lives we desire to extinguish.

01:00:29.841 --> 01:00:34.024 [AK]: We pretend that it's good for them, that they'll be happier, better people if they agree with us.

01:00:34.504 --> 01:00:39.548 [AK]: That's what we do when we kill people in the name of democracy or equality or whatever our gods are.

01:00:40.148 --> 01:00:45.372 [AK]: The Prince Bishop, I think, was simply more forthright than modern, equally brutal, if not more brutal regimes.

01:00:45.879 --> 01:00:52.245 [JF]: Well, at the end of the day, he's no different than the other group in that he claims to speak for God.

01:00:52.865 --> 01:00:55.508 [JF]: He claims to wield the power of the king.

01:00:55.568 --> 01:01:07.899 [JF]: And this, for, again, you don't have to believe the Bible to understand this insight that the Bible gives, which is that in the history of mankind, there really are two heads to the beast that's trying to control man.

01:01:09.199 --> 01:01:10.299 [JF]: Us as a group.

01:01:10.699 --> 01:01:16.981 [JF]: And one of those heads is the sword government, however you want to call it, the official power.

01:01:17.301 --> 01:01:23.022 [JF]: And the other head is the mythology, the story, the echo chamber of religion, whatever you want to call it, superstition.

01:01:23.442 --> 01:01:25.963 [JF]: I'm going to call it truth, but it's still there.

01:01:26.383 --> 01:01:33.164 [JF]: Those two office places are always wrestling for the soul of every civilization.

01:01:33.184 --> 01:01:35.825 [JF]: And if you don't believe there's a soul, you know what I meant.

01:01:35.845 --> 01:01:36.565 [JF]: The heart, the heart.

01:01:37.225 --> 01:01:42.627 [AK]: Because the human nature desires both truth and order.

01:01:43.648 --> 01:01:48.510 [AK]: Not necessarily in every single society, the same shape, the same way, whatever.

01:01:49.230 --> 01:01:53.912 [AK]: But you want to know what is true, and you want life to sort of function.

01:01:55.033 --> 01:01:57.134 [AK]: Just function, not be miserable.

01:01:57.894 --> 01:01:58.854 [AK]: Truth and order.

01:02:00.555 --> 01:02:12.658 [AK]: Those are the two things that are therefore most often perverted, twisted, corrupted, messed with, lied about in human history, which is why you see something that looks like a cycle but we're saying is actually a spiral.

01:02:13.379 --> 01:02:14.259 [JF]: All right.

01:02:14.279 --> 01:02:24.162 [JF]: So I want to talk about the cages a little bit more on this level, which is the idea of the scapegoat and the idea of branding as well, branding your message.

01:02:24.802 --> 01:02:28.163 [JF]: It's medieval, no question, but that was branding.

01:02:28.923 --> 01:02:30.785 [JF]: in very high form, honestly.

01:02:30.945 --> 01:02:33.647 [JF]: I mean, it left a mark on the memories of the civilization.

01:02:33.667 --> 01:02:34.267 [JF]: It's still there.

01:02:34.587 --> 01:02:34.848 [JF]: Jeez.

01:02:35.008 --> 01:02:35.468 [JF]: Right.

01:02:35.608 --> 01:02:51.200 [JF]: And then, and the scapegoat nature of that as well, the need for scapegoating to remove the chaos, which you can argue, you know, that that's a spiritual reality that we have to deal with eventually, you know, eternally, but forget that, forget, we're talking about moving people, moving mobs, scapegoats, help.

01:02:51.601 --> 01:02:54.002 [JF]: And we're watching that in droves.

01:02:54.042 --> 01:02:56.424 [JF]: Cancel culture is like the culture of scapegoating our way to power.

01:02:56.484 --> 01:02:57.625 [AK]: Yeah.

01:02:58.045 --> 01:02:58.446 [AK]: I think that

01:02:59.693 --> 01:03:04.939 [AK]: Even the term cancel culture does not, I think, capture what is occurring.

01:03:05.480 --> 01:03:15.371 [AK]: Because when someone is going to not only execute you, but also put you in a cage, display you before everyone as a kind of theater of destruction,

01:03:16.212 --> 01:03:19.454 [AK]: The purpose of that is not to get rid of you.

01:03:19.474 --> 01:03:28.942 [AK]: I mean, cancel makes it sound sort of like you just closed the program, or you didn't want to perform that function on your word processing program.

01:03:29.522 --> 01:03:31.503 [AK]: It's too nice for what happens.

01:03:31.543 --> 01:03:31.904 [JF]: It's censorship.

01:03:31.944 --> 01:03:32.524 [JF]: It's censorship.

01:03:32.544 --> 01:03:32.784 [AK]: Yeah.

01:03:33.205 --> 01:03:33.425 [AK]: Yeah.

01:03:33.785 --> 01:03:38.869 [AK]: And this is, again, where I think they do not simply want.

01:03:38.889 --> 01:03:43.973 [AK]: I think what is unique about our time is that they do not simply want your obedience.

01:03:44.673 --> 01:03:44.993 [AK]: They do.

01:03:46.172 --> 01:03:56.086 [AK]: But the vehemence of the messaging and the display is like the cages of the executed men in this way, that they also want your thoughts.

01:03:57.090 --> 01:03:58.670 [AK]: They want control over your thoughts.

01:03:59.171 --> 01:04:01.811 [AK]: They want to decide what the boundaries of those things are going to be.

01:04:02.192 --> 01:04:07.773 [AK]: They want control over the deepest parts of you, your fear, your anxiety, your worry about what's going to happen to your kids.

01:04:08.313 --> 01:04:12.495 [AK]: That's what they want control over because when they can take that, they have taken you.

01:04:12.515 --> 01:04:15.876 [AK]: I mean, you could go on eating and drinking with your mask off.

01:04:15.896 --> 01:04:23.778 [AK]: You're allowed to do that, but you will go on having the deepest parts of you controlled by someone else.

01:04:24.398 --> 01:04:29.483 [AK]: Your trust is warped and taken over, and you don't even get to be you.

01:04:30.164 --> 01:04:41.675 [JF]: You don't have to believe my Bible to believe that the history of power is the history of liars, who just come and are not afraid to say, I swear it'll help you.

01:04:42.235 --> 01:04:42.496 [JF]: Do it.

01:04:43.256 --> 01:04:45.659 [JF]: And what they mean is, it could help you.

01:04:46.343 --> 01:04:54.468 [JF]: But it's going to help me, and again learning to discern that for the sake of this civilization, that we not have to become barbarians or resort to barbarianism.

01:04:54.548 --> 01:04:55.829 [JF]: Why are they putting guys in cages?

01:04:56.589 --> 01:04:58.490 [JF]: Because they're pretty sure it would stop it from happening again.

01:04:59.031 --> 01:04:59.491 [JF]: That's why.

01:04:59.511 --> 01:05:00.552 [JF]: I was listening.

01:05:00.572 --> 01:05:03.894 [JF]: This is a different topic a little bit, but I was listening to a conversation about…

01:05:04.674 --> 01:05:05.375 [JF]: Oh, what is it now?

01:05:05.455 --> 01:05:15.662 [JF]: The decriminalization of certain things in these cities where again, you know, unless you're a 10th time offender, and it's like felony level, but you got to do it a 10th time, you're not going to get jail time, all this kind of stuff.

01:05:16.142 --> 01:05:20.025 [JF]: And they're saying, well, you know, putting them in isn't stopping them from committing crimes when they get out.

01:05:20.545 --> 01:05:25.929 [JF]: And that reminds me of a long ago, I heard someone talk about how the correctional facility idea that is a Protestant

01:05:27.410 --> 01:05:29.132 [JF]: The idea that they're not being punished.

01:05:29.152 --> 01:05:29.892 [JF]: They're being corrected.

01:05:30.253 --> 01:05:31.434 [JF]: They're going to come out of it better.

01:05:31.914 --> 01:05:37.519 [JF]: That's a philosophy that's driving a lot of this right now, which actually believes there's no such thing as a bad person.

01:05:37.959 --> 01:05:43.344 [JF]: There is not anybody who in fact is just going to keep being evil and lie to you about it, which all our psychology shows us.

01:05:43.364 --> 01:05:47.007 [JF]: I mean, this is all over the place and it's certainly there within jails.

01:05:47.027 --> 01:05:48.488 [JF]: I'm not saying everybody there deserves to be there.

01:05:48.508 --> 01:05:50.129 [JF]: I'm not saying the system is correct or good.

01:05:50.149 --> 01:05:54.092 [JF]: In fact, the fact that we call it a correctional system is problematic, but we don't believe in evil.

01:05:54.833 --> 01:05:58.795 [JF]: Yet we believe in power and I think there's something really backwards going on in all of that.

01:05:59.875 --> 01:06:08.439 [JF]: We should believe power is good and evil is real and again commit ourselves to a good use of power, which again means understanding all of it, right?

01:06:08.519 --> 01:06:08.919 [JF]: I don't know.

01:06:09.940 --> 01:06:12.601 [JF]: Can you close that up and bring us somewhere that sounds like an end?

01:06:13.396 --> 01:06:22.961 [AK]: Yeah, so I think a place for us to go next is to talk about the ideas that underlie lies, because I don't think they always start out as lies.

01:06:23.722 --> 01:06:29.345 [AK]: So the correctional system is built on a Quaker understanding of what human beings are.

01:06:29.765 --> 01:06:32.886 [AK]: But they're all sort of intrinsically good, and you have to discover that.

01:06:33.427 --> 01:06:35.387 [AK]: And that's one of the things that you're going to do in prison.

01:06:35.728 --> 01:06:50.694 [AK]: So obviously, if people aren't doing that, if they're committing the same crimes time after time, you would stop punishing them, because it's not working, they're not changing, rather than the idea that if you do evil, you are punished for evil, whether or not you're going to do it again in the future.

01:06:51.621 --> 01:06:59.609 [AK]: Now, that is all underneath one of the things that we're saying, which is that because you're human, your deepest need is to trust.

01:07:01.131 --> 01:07:04.834 [AK]: And your need to trust is the very thing that's going to be used against you.

01:07:05.275 --> 01:07:08.037 [AK]: It's what they're going to use when you feel that you're going to be canceled.

01:07:08.938 --> 01:07:14.443 [AK]: It's what they use when you feel like you can't go against what seems to be prevailing opinion.

01:07:14.943 --> 01:07:18.726 [AK]: And it's what they use when they threaten your life at the end of these things.

01:07:18.786 --> 01:07:30.415 [AK]: Because in all of these revolutions, Munster, France, Russia, today, human lives finally go away, are extinguished, are expunged for the sake of the revolution.

01:07:30.835 --> 01:07:38.021 [AK]: That is, the ideology and the power that it's grasping for becomes far more important than a living, breathing human being.

01:07:38.962 --> 01:07:42.509 [AK]: And you will be told lies about that and how many bodies there were.

01:07:42.889 --> 01:07:43.531 [AK]: Of course you will.

01:07:44.440 --> 01:07:51.803 [AK]: So I think where we're going to go next time is to look at how do those lies come into form?

01:07:52.504 --> 01:07:57.846 [AK]: And what are some examples of how they are articulated and sort of masked?

01:07:58.286 --> 01:08:01.468 [AK]: Because I think the notion of a mask is a very powerful one.

01:08:01.988 --> 01:08:06.270 [AK]: It's something that you're now sort of, you're being programmed to think of as a good thing.

01:08:06.770 --> 01:08:11.012 [AK]: But historically, just if you say, like, mask off, that means I'm being honest.

01:08:12.023 --> 01:08:18.068 [AK]: or if someone is evil and trying to pretend not to be, he's masking his intentions.

01:08:18.648 --> 01:08:21.691 [AK]: So we want to talk about masks and what's underneath them.

01:08:21.951 --> 01:08:22.171 [JF]: Right.

01:08:23.012 --> 01:08:34.121 [JF]: And leaning in a direction of bringing ethnicity up as a topic too, a little bit, not for the sake of what we would call prejudice, but for the sake of being aware that tribes are different from each other.

01:08:34.201 --> 01:08:37.624 [JF]: And if we're going to get along, we got to understand each other, which means we got to be who we are.

01:08:38.264 --> 01:08:39.265 [JF]: And so, so that's the thing.

01:08:39.565 --> 01:08:43.348 [JF]: He said, Adam, that what happens in these revolutions is the value of human life diminishes.

01:08:43.468 --> 01:08:46.731 [JF]: One of the – these three guys in cages seems extreme.

01:08:47.231 --> 01:08:55.918 [JF]: But you also – we brushed over the top of how much destruction went on inside the city and there's one story about a man who – he early on questions this.

01:08:55.958 --> 01:08:58.620 [JF]: Before the guy rides out to fight and gets killed, the first prophet is doing his thing.

01:08:58.640 --> 01:09:00.761 [JF]: But the second guy, bin Laden, is still there.

01:09:01.502 --> 01:09:03.383 [JF]: He's kind of a hanger-on around the edges of stuff.

01:09:03.924 --> 01:09:06.186 [JF]: It's one of the places he really comes into the forefront.

01:09:06.934 --> 01:09:12.956 [JF]: is that one of the men who has been just a member of the city and kind of along with everything starts to question what's going on.

01:09:12.976 --> 01:09:16.236 [JF]: He says, I'm not so sure about this false prophet or this hokey prophet.

01:09:16.256 --> 01:09:17.197 [JF]: He kind of calls him a name.

01:09:18.037 --> 01:09:21.858 [JF]: The whole thing ends up with him out on the street and the Bernard guy, right?

01:09:21.898 --> 01:09:22.658 [JF]: No, no, no, John.

01:09:22.878 --> 01:09:26.239 [JF]: John runs out and dies, shouting that this guy's got to die.

01:09:26.299 --> 01:09:32.941 [JF]: And this other John Madladden guy jumps out of the crowd with a pitchfork, stabs him in the back or the chest to kill him.

01:09:33.741 --> 01:09:34.302 [JF]: Doesn't happen.

01:09:35.082 --> 01:09:37.264 [JF]: So he takes a gun, shoots him in the head to kill him.

01:09:38.024 --> 01:09:39.325 [JF]: Doesn't happen, right?

01:09:39.565 --> 01:09:41.127 [JF]: They finally managed to get this guy dead.

01:09:41.627 --> 01:09:44.990 [JF]: That kind of stuff's happening like every couple of days by these people.

01:09:45.250 --> 01:09:48.952 [JF]: They are—this is French Revolution stuff, way before French Revolution.

01:09:50.093 --> 01:09:57.439 [JF]: And I say that just to demonstrate, Adam, human life becomes a thing that doesn't matter whenever you have power being abused.

01:09:58.430 --> 01:10:00.813 [JF]: that power exists for the preservation of life.

01:10:01.053 --> 01:10:01.814 [JF]: That's what it's there for.

01:10:02.535 --> 01:10:09.042 [JF]: And hopefully, our brief history of that as two white guys can help us from where we're at, preserve a little more your life where you are.

01:10:10.083 --> 01:10:10.784 [JF]: And we'll leave it at that.

01:10:30.998 --> 01:10:31.078 Bye!