View source for Kids Have Questions - Part 2

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[TW]: Very simple questions, but questions that people of all ages really have.

== What will we be doing in heaven besides worshiping God? ==
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[TW]: What will we be doing in heaven besides worshiping God?

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[TW]: Are there other things that will be occurring?

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[TW]: Will we all be equal in heaven when the resurrection does come?

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[TW]: What age will we be in the new earth?

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[TW]: Welcome back to Issues Etc.

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[TW]: I'm Todd Wilkin.

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[TW]: It's part two of our series, Kids Have Questions.

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[TW]: Today, the afterlife, heaven, resurrection, and the new earth.

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[TW]: Pastor Jonathan Conard joins us.

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[TW]: He's pastor of Zion Lutheran Church in Manning, Iowa.

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[TW]: Jonathan, welcome back.

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[JC]: Hey, thanks, Todd.

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[JC]: It's good to be here.

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[TW]: We ended our last conversation asking a question about pets in heaven, and I'd like you just to review the answer that you gave, but you said there was a lot more to say as well.

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[JC]: Yeah, so first just to review what the answer I gave to the child, because I get this question pretty often.

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[JC]: I mean, I love this question because I think it really gets us thinking about the realness of the new earth.

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[JC]: And I want kids and I want all of us really to have an opportunity to reflect upon that.

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[JC]: And I know that pets are an important part of families.

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[JC]: All of us have a deep bond to our pets.

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[JC]: And I think that's a beautiful thing.

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[JC]: But I think it's also,

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[JC]: It's like this little foretaste of the deep connection that we will experience in the resurrection with all of creation and our connection to the animals.

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[JC]: I think back with Adam and Eve, their connection to the animals must have been phenomenal.

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[JC]: So I think our connection with pets is kind of like this little foretaste of maybe what's to come.

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[JC]: Nonetheless, I always want to commend kids when they ask these questions.

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[JC]: It's great that you're thinking about these.

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[JC]: I acknowledge with the kids that, yep,

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[JC]: We need to distinguish what we're talking about when they say, well, my pet be in heaven.

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[JC]: So maybe just to distinguish between what we would say when our bodies die and our souls are with Jesus, that heaven, would we expect to see our pets there?

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[JC]: Well, we don't have any clear word from Scripture that

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[JC]: They have a continued existence beyond the grave, although we do have the evidence in Genesis that they have the same breath of life in them.

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[JC]: So they have an animal soul of sorts, but it seems to be a lower level of consciousness than we have.

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[JC]: I like to kind of say it this way.

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[JC]: Animals are aware.

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[JC]: They may not be aware that they are aware, which is the level of consciousness that we have.

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[JC]: So we don't have any word from Scripture necessarily that our pets will be like, die and go to heaven, as we may speak about humans doing.

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[JC]: But we have every reason to believe that animals will most certainly be on the new Earth.

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[JC]: Now, we don't have the promise that our particular pets will be, but there's no reason why we can't imagine the possibility.

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[JC]: And we're going to hopefully get to this a little bit later in some of other questions, but I'd like to extol the role of imagination.

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[JC]: especially when we're talking about the promise of resurrection.

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[JC]: Scripture doesn't spell out everything for us, but it certainly sets a trajectory and it certainly invites us to imagine.

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[JC]: So we'll return to imagination a little bit later.

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[JC]: So the question of, will pets, our particular pets, be in the resurrection?

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[JC]: I don't know, but I would say definitely animals.

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[JC]: Now, to expand upon what we talked about last time, and this is something that has always fascinated me,

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[JC]: And it's right there in front of our face in Scripture, and I don't know if we always pick up on it, but when you read through Scripture and you see some of the accounts, for example, of the seraphim and the cherubim, these sort of multi-form animal creatures who are portrayed in the Bible as the guardians of God's throne room, and some of them have

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[JC]: different animal heads.

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[JC]: Some of them are described like the seraphs, like these burning serpentine-like creatures.

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[JC]: And even John in the book of Revelation, the term he uses, it gets translated living creature, but it's just animal.

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[JC]: So the thing I think is so fascinating is, I think it's fair to say that these seraphim cherubim,

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[JC]: In some ways, they are real creatures, but they also serve as symbolic representations of the creatures of the land who offer their praise to the Creator.

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[JC]: So you think about all throughout Scripture where

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[JC]: the creation is included in the praise of its creator.

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[JC]: The mountains clap their hands, and you have the deer skipping for joy, and the different descriptions of the animals being caught up together in praise.

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[JC]: And in the one sense, yeah, we hear them singing and barking and growling, and we can say, oh, this is a chorus of honor and praise to the creator.

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[JC]: That's good.

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[JC]: But there's also something to

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[JC]: this symbolic representation of the animals who are angelic or spiritual being creatures in heaven, who in some ways represent before God the praise of these creatures on earth.

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[JC]: It's a fascinating thought.

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[JC]: I think it's really something worth exploring in terms of how we understand that the creatures here on earth are offering their praise to God.

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[JC]: And then,

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[JC]: how they'll be included in this praise to God in the resurrection.

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[JC]: So I think there's so much to think about and explore and to use our imaginations on.

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[JC]: Now, I have to say up front, this is important.

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[JC]: We can't always be dogmatic.

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[JC]: We don't always have an explicitly clear word of God on the specifics of it.

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[JC]: But I think we have enough in Scripture to allow our imaginations to think about what might be, and then to celebrate that and get excited about that.

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[JC]: So we'll talk more about imagination in a little bit, but I wanted to add that little bit about the seraphim, cherubim, kind of being the representatives of the animals on earth, bringing their praise to God.

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[JC]: I think that's a beautiful image.

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[TW]: I've always told children when those questions come up, well, you know, God saw fit to include from the very beginning, even before the creation of man, the animal kingdom here in his first creation.

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[TW]: And there's no reason to think he won't do the same in the new creation.

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[JC]: Amen.

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[JC]: I mean, he preserved them on the ark, right?

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[JC]: I mean, so God clearly cares about them.

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[JC]: So I'm with you.

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[JC]: There's no reason at all, and lots of reason to believe they'll be there.

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[JC]: So I think we have great grounds for believing that the animals will be there in just an amazing fashion.

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[TW]: Another question is, the Bible says there's no sadness in heaven.

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[TW]: What if you can see your family members on earth?

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[TW]: How can you not be sad then?

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[JC]: This is a great question.

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[JC]: I mean, I get asked this question in different forms, not just by kids, but by adults.

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[JC]: And I think that's one of the great things about kids' questions is kids are so good about just asking them kind of bluntly.

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[JC]: You know, when you visit with adults, sometimes they try to ask them in a tactful way, and that's great.

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[JC]: But I love when kids just ask them bluntly because

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[JC]: One, it shows these kids are really thinking, but it also gives me an opportunity to answer hopefully what is a helpful way to bring them comfort and confidence.

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[JC]: So here's what I said to the child first, and then I'll maybe expand upon that just a little bit.

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[JC]: First, great question.

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[JC]: I'm so glad you're thinking about this.

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[JC]: So let's think through it.

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[JC]: First,

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[JC]: Happiness in heaven isn't dependent upon happenings on earth.

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[JC]: In other words, things on earth don't have to be going well for us to be happy in heaven.

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[JC]: The Bible doesn't give us explicit knowledge on whether we'll know what's happening on earth or not.

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[JC]: There are some passages that seem to suggest this, but it's not for certain.

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[JC]: So let's just conclude that we do know what is happening on earth.

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[JC]: We'll be happy in heaven because we're with the source of happiness, God.

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[JC]: And we'll see that he is fully in control and that he deeply loves our family.

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[JC]: Further, we'll see that he is working through the good and the bad, the happy and the sad to work his purposes, which are good and right.

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[JC]: But let's think a little deeper.

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[JC]: The Bible promises no sadness in the resurrection.

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[JC]: But it doesn't say that about heaven before the resurrection, so when our bodies are in the ground and our souls are in heaven.

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[JC]: Now, it doesn't say we'll be sad in heaven, but it's at least possible that in heaven we could experience some sorrow or sadness on earth, over sadness on earth, or yearning for God to bring the resurrection and to banish sorrow forever.

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[JC]: So I don't think that's out of the question.

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[JC]: But again, because we'll be with God and know that He's in control, that sadness, if we experience it, will not overwhelm us, but we will find hope and peace in God.

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[JC]: Okay, so that's where my answer ends.

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[JC]: But if we were to go, for example, over to Revelation 6, and I think we might have referenced that last time, you have the souls under the altar of God and they're yearning for judgment.

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[JC]: Well, they have at least some knowledge of injustice.

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[JC]: And there's this urgent longing for judgment.

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[JC]: So I think at the very least, there's some knowledge that the story hasn't reached its end yet.

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[JC]: So I don't find the possibility of a fuller range of emotions in heaven to be troubling.

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[JC]: Heaven, as Scripture will teach, it's a place of refreshment.

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[JC]: But like I said a second ago, it's not the final destination.

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[JC]: The story hasn't reached its resolution yet.

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[JC]: So if that's the case, there has to be some sense of it, some sense that the story hasn't reached its telos yet.

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[JC]: So we will know peace when we're with Jesus in heaven, but not without the simultaneous experience of longing for the resurrection, of longing for God, right, to bring His work to completion.

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[JC]: But here, the thing I think that's, in this case, that's really critical that we need to remember is this.

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[JC]: We are going to be with the source of our happiness, the source of happiness itself, God.

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[JC]: I think that's so important.

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[JC]: We can't lose sight of that.

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[JC]: We're going to be with the source of happiness, God.

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[JC]: And this is another key point.

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[JC]: I think it's really important for all of us to appreciate this, but

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[JC]: God doesn't have to make us ignorant to make us happy.

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[JC]: So God doesn't have to keep knowledge from us to make us happy.

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[JC]: Happiness is found in Him, not in ignorance of bad and sad things.

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[JC]: So I think if we keep that in our minds, that's a good way of thinking through this, and maybe gives us a little bit fuller picture for that wonderful question.

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[TW]: So I want you to just expand on that a moment because we tend to think then the wrong way about how the Christian finds that joy or that peace despite the circumstances, in this case, of our lives here, but also in the case of the hypothetical of observing the lives of our loved ones from a heavenly perspective.

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[TW]: We have a wrong way of thinking about the peace and joy that is found only in God.

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[JC]: Amen.

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[JC]: I completely agree.

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[JC]: We have this idea, and I think we all fall into it.

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[JC]: I know I do.

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[JC]: We think happiness means that we're not aware of the bad stuff, or the bad stuff isn't happening.

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[JC]: And I think that's thinking in the negative.

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[JC]: And that's one piece, I think, that can be a part of our conversation.

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[JC]: But like you said, even here on earth, right?

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[JC]: I mean, Scripture says, give thanks in all circumstances.

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[JC]: It doesn't say give thanks necessarily for all circumstances.

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[JC]: Sometimes they're hard.

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[JC]: But happiness is... God doesn't have to make us ignorant of all the bad things to make us happy, because happiness is found in the positive, in the presence of God Himself, and in knowing Him and fellowshipping with Him.

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[JC]: And I think if we know that, no matter... Speaking of life on earth for now,

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[JC]: no matter our circumstance.

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[JC]: And you can read so many different autobiographies and stories of individuals who've been through some really difficult things, horrendous suffering, and how they found peace, even happiness, in the midst of just unimaginable suffering and sorrow.

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[JC]: But in the midst of it, they have found it in the positive, not trying to find it in the negative, in the absence of the hard things, but in the positive, in the presence of the one source of all happiness and joy, and that's our Lord Jesus Christ.

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[JC]: So if we have Him,

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[JC]: You know, I mean, that's happiness.

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[JC]: So I think if we think of it that way, there won't be fear of, like you said, hypothetical.

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[JC]: And we can't be dogmatic on whether we're going to know what's going on on earth.

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[JC]: But just for argument's sake, if we do, we don't have to worry about knowing about the bad stuff.

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[JC]: It's not going to detract from our happiness because it can't take us away from Jesus.

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[TW]: It's our series, Kids Have Questions.

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[TW]: Today, the afterlife, heaven, resurrection, and the new earth.

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[TW]: Pastor Jonathan Conner is our guest.

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[TW]: Another question, will everyone be equal in heaven or will some be higher up than others?

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[TW]: Welcome back to Issues Etc.

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[TW]: I'm Todd Wilkin.

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[TW]: It's our series, Kids Have Questions.

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[TW]: Pastor Jonathan Connors is our guest, pastor of Zion Lutheran Church in Manning, Iowa.

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[TW]: Pastor Connor, this question comes in various forms.

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[TW]: Sometimes it's asked of degrees of glory in heaven or degrees of rewards in heaven.

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[TW]: Will everyone be equal in heaven or will some people be higher up than others?

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[JC]: This is a great question.

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[JC]: I love when kids think this way.

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[JC]: I know adults think this way.

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[JC]: We should be asking this question.

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[JC]: So here's first of all, what I said to the child, and then we have a little bit of fun expanding on it because there's just some great stuff on this.

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[JC]: So great question, I say to the child.

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[JC]: Here's what we know.

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[JC]: The Bible speaks of rewards for works.

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[JC]: Paul writes about that in 1 Corinthians 3.

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[JC]: So I'm just going to read the text here.

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[JC]: According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder, I laid a foundation and someone else is building upon it.

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[JC]: Let each one take care how he builds upon it.

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[JC]: For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

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[JC]: Now,

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[JC]: If anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work will become manifest, for the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.

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[JC]: If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.

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[JC]: If anyone's work is burned up,

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[JC]: He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

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[JC]: So 1 Corinthians 3, 10 to 15.

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[JC]: So I go on.

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[JC]: It's clear that there are degrees of rewards in heaven.

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[JC]: We are saved by the grace of Jesus alone, but the rewards we receive in heaven or on the new earth will be different based upon our life of faithfulness.

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[JC]: Does this mean some will be quote-unquote higher up?

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[JC]: I don't know exactly.

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[JC]: All I can say with certainty is that some will receive greater reward or honor for their faithfulness on earth.

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[JC]: Now, my answer ends there.

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[JC]: And I want to acknowledge up front,

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[JC]: A lot of our good Lutheran friends right now are getting a little bit nervous because here's a Lutheran pastor talking about reward for works.

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[JC]: And I know why we get a little bit antsy.

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[JC]: So here's what I'm going to do.

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[JC]: I'm just going to take us to a few of our Lutheran forefathers and share a few of what the statements they've said on this and how they've sorted through this.

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[JC]: I think this is beautiful and insightful.

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[JC]: And the reason why I think it's beautiful is it tells me that God cares about our lives and

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[JC]: And I know people who have been through such difficult...

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[JC]: trials in the faith, hard losses, hard trials, and people who have worked hard in the church and for the confessing of Christ in their vocations.

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[JC]: And I wanna say, yes, it's right that God would honor their life of faithfulness.

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[JC]: And this is what a just God would do.

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[JC]: So back to a couple of our Lutheran forefathers.

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[JC]: I'm gonna start with Pieper, okay?

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[JC]: Pieper says this in Christian Dogmatics volume three,

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[JC]: Scripture does teach that there are, get this, okay, there are degrees of glory corresponding to differences of work and fidelity here on earth.

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[JC]: There are degrees of glory, if people comes flat out and says it, basically based on people's works.

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[JC]: Walter writes this, it's a little bit longer paragraph, but he says this in some of his convention essays.

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[JC]: He says, let us examine our good works.

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[JC]: How many works do we do?

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[JC]: certainly few enough, we must not forget that scripture often says, your work shall be rewarded.

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[JC]: That's from Jeremiah 31, 16, he quotes from.

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[JC]: He goes on, a preacher must not think that he dare not talk about this.

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[JC]: Holy scripture itself speaks of it.

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[JC]: A Christian may well need to be given such supports.

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[JC]: Then Walther goes on to encourage preachers on what to say.

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[JC]: And this is just shocking, okay?

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[JC]: He says, therefore one may well say, dear brethren, do this work.

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[JC]: It will be rewarded in heaven if you do it for God's sake."

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[JC]: He goes on, "...one need not be fearful that people will then become seekers of rewards.

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[JC]: For one should diligently preach grace, then one may confidently preach about the great reward of good works.

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[JC]: This is what we call properly stimulating to good works by calling attention to their reward."

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[JC]: That's, it's Walter.

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[JC]: That's beautiful.

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[JC]: And it's stunning, honestly.

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[JC]: Now let's just go to the formula of Concord, right?

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[JC]: This is in solid declaration four.

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[JC]: They write this for as it is God's will and express command that the faithful should do good works, which the Holy spirit effects in the faithful.

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[JC]: So God allows these works to please him for Christ's sake.

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[JC]: And get this, here it is.

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[JC]: And promises a glorious reward for them in this life and in the life to come.

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[JC]: Now, I could read, I could go on and go into it, get this, this is shocking, in the Kolb edition and the Tappert edition, in the Apology 4, this is the Octavo version, the little bit longer version of the Apology of the Augsburg Confession, in Article 4,

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[JC]: They come right out and commend reward for works in Article 4 on justification in the apology.

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[JC]: I mean, that's the last place you'd probably expect to find this.

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[JC]: So I think this is probably something that

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[JC]: Either we've neglected it just because we're afraid, like Walter says, you know, you don't have to be afraid that people are going to suddenly be thinking, I'm going to do these works to get more rewards.

24:16.280 --> 24:16.420
[JC]: No.

24:16.720 --> 24:22.144
[JC]: Preach grace confidently and then and then tell them God loves you.

24:22.424 --> 24:24.385
[JC]: And God is a just God and a righteous God.

24:24.665 --> 24:29.709
[JC]: And he honors lives of fidelity and faithfulness to him with rewards in heaven.

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[JC]: Now, I think one thing maybe it's important to point out is this.

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[JC]: These rewards, they're not designed to make us look more important on the new earth.

24:37.814 --> 24:43.476
[JC]: They're designed to give us the opportunity to give greater glory to God, greater glory to Christ our Savior.

24:44.056 --> 24:46.557
[JC]: So I think there's so much to be said there.

24:46.797 --> 24:51.738
[JC]: And I have one other one, just this isn't from our confessions, to make a brief reference to C.S.

24:51.778 --> 24:52.938
[JC]: Lewis's The Great Divorce.

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[JC]: And I would love to read the whole section.

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[JC]: Time doesn't allow us to.

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[JC]: But you have the scene where the gentleman, he's on his day trip to heaven.

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[JC]: And there's this great procession, this parade is coming.

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[JC]: And obviously, whoever's in this parade, in the center of it, she's really, really important.

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[JC]: Because there's just throngs of people surrounding her.

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[JC]: And they're kind of like her train.

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[JC]: So they're obviously honoring her in some way.

25:18.368 --> 25:23.171
[JC]: And the character says, is this someone, a person of particular importance?

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[JC]: And the angel guy says, aye, she is one of the great ones.

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[JC]: Ye have heard that fame in this country and fame on earth are two quite different things."

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[JC]: I find that so encouraging because when you read the full description, this woman whose name was just Sarah Smith, very plain name, right?

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[JC]: She was overlooked by everybody.

25:44.569 --> 25:47.212
[JC]: She took care of animals and she ministered to people who were in need.

25:47.632 --> 25:50.156
[JC]: Nobody noticed her in her life, but she was faithful.

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[JC]: And in this scene, the point Lewis is making is the Lord rewards the faithful.

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[JC]: He is a just God.

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[JC]: He will see that those who honor Him in their lives, they will be rewarded in the resurrection.

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[JC]: in a beautiful way, not so as to bring glory to them, but ultimately to bring glory to Christ.

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[JC]: So you can see how His grace has been at work in these people.

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[JC]: I think that's a beautiful doctrine.

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[JC]: I think that's something we should be preaching and extolling.

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[JC]: It just holds out this fuller picture of God's righteousness that maybe we haven't been fleshing out as much as we could.

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[JC]: So I love that question.

26:23.761 --> 26:25.341
[JC]: I think there's a lot to explore there.

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[JC]: And that's in a nutshell, just a little bit on reward for works.

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[TW]: Because this doesn't quite make sense to us, just like the happiness question before, it does highlight how wrongheaded our thinking is about why God rewards anything.

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[TW]: And we tend to think it always has to be because somehow we earned this reward rather than a reward that is holy of His grace, just as the works that He has given us to do are holy of His grace.

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[JC]: Amen.

26:52.845 --> 26:53.285
[JC]: Exactly.

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[JC]: I mean, we are so wrongheaded, but I think when we can finally start to see that God's grace is at work in these people, that this is not about drawing attention to that person.

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[JC]: It's about giving glory to Christ and seeing how His nature is radiating through them.

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[JC]: And I think if we start to see that, that effort is not consumed by, like you said, we earned this, we deserve this, all that sort of thing.

27:19.535 --> 27:19.856
[JC]: No.

27:20.877 --> 27:26.662
[JC]: God is good and He's gracious and when that grace starts to work through us and shine through us, it's a beautiful thing.

27:27.002 --> 27:28.724
[JC]: And God is right to honor that.

27:28.804 --> 27:30.265
[JC]: I think that's a beautiful thing.

27:30.305 --> 27:35.470
[JC]: I think, you know, an adjustment for the way we look at this could do us great good in the church.

27:37.312 --> 27:38.053
[TW]: Another question.

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[TW]: When the resurrection comes, what age will we be when we enter the new earth?

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[JC]: Isn't that great?

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[JC]: What I love about this is kids are thinking about the resurrection.

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[JC]: That's exactly what we want them to do.

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[JC]: So I'll read my answer and I'll have a chance to expand upon it.

27:53.909 --> 27:57.090
[JC]: I think we're going to ask a little bit about, will there be little kids on the new earth?

27:57.110 --> 27:58.590
[JC]: So I'll expand upon that then.

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[JC]: So I'll do a shorter answer now and then dig in a little more in a minute.

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[JC]: So I say, great question.

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[JC]: The Bible doesn't give a specific answer to this, so we can't either, but

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[JC]: we can know what our bodies will be like.

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[JC]: Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, 42 to 44.

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[JC]: Now, just a side note here.

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[JC]: I love this section of text.

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[JC]: I love sharing this with people in hospital settings, in home visits.

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[JC]: I mean, when people's bodies hurt, when they can hear what the promise of the body, for the body is in the resurrection, this stuff's exciting.

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[JC]: So I go on here and say this.

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[JC]: Paul describes the resurrected body as being imperishable, so having no expiration date.

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[JC]: Glorified, that means sharing in the wow of God.

28:49.158 --> 28:55.042
[JC]: So I always like to tell people God's glory is the wow of God, trying to give them some sort of image to latch onto.

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[JC]: Paul says powerful, so not weakened by sin or disease or age, and spirit empowered.

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[JC]: And we talked about that last time.

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[JC]: So not tempted by sin.

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[JC]: And I go on.

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[JC]: It would seem reasonable then that our bodies would be raised as mature, young adult bodies, although some suggest that children who died young might be raised as children and be allowed to grow up on the new earth.

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[JC]: We don't know for sure.

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[JC]: But we do know that our bodies will be whole and healthy forever.

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[JC]: I find that to be so exciting.

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[JC]: So that's where my answer ends.

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[JC]: But I love, I love talking about the resurrected body.

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[JC]: I think it makes it so much more real for people.

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[JC]: It's something to look forward to, which

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[JC]: I mean, if the resurrection is even half true, isn't it something we should just long for with all of our being?

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[JC]: I just think this is something we should be talking about all the time.

29:51.322 --> 29:53.164
[JC]: This is the great promise that Christ has given to us.

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[JC]: I'll stop there, and we'll do the next question, then I'll maybe dig in a little bit more.

29:56.587 --> 29:59.109
[TW]: So that next question, will there be little kids on the new earth?

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[JC]: Right, so here's what I say to the child.

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[JC]: The Bible doesn't specify the ages of our bodies on the new earth, but it's certainly possible that God would allow parents to raise the little children who died while in this age of sin and death.

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[JC]: We'll have to leave this an open question until Jesus returns.

30:15.973 --> 30:21.415
[JC]: Now, my answer ends there, but here's something I want us to be, I think we should be more comfortable with.

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[JC]: We should be able to say, that's an open question, and simply to say, it's possible.

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[JC]: No, I can't say, thus saith the Lord.

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[JC]: I don't have a clear text from Scripture.

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[JC]: So to say that would be saying more than I can say.

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[JC]: But knowing the character of God, it's at least conceivable that that could happen.

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[JC]: And I think being able to share that with people, it doesn't give us a certainty, but at least reminds us that God is a real God who

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[JC]: who's a caring God and a loving God.

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[JC]: So it gets us into more of the character of God.

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[JC]: He's this real person, and He desires what is good for us, so it's at least conceivable.

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[JC]: Now, like I mentioned, we do need to acknowledge, though, look, when Scripture's silent,

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[JC]: We just have to acknowledge it.

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[JC]: We talk about Scripture is sufficient, but it's not exhaustive on every question.

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[JC]: And I know sometimes we can feel like that's frustrating, but I have a couple thoughts on that.

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[JC]: One, like I mentioned, we have something to look forward to.

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[JC]: And this is the part I'm really excited about.

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[JC]: Okay.

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[JC]: So we have a loving father.

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[JC]: Just like when, for those of us who had loving fathers raising us, or have loving fathers now who are raising us, and we knew our birthday was coming, we could be pretty sure that our father and our mother, they had something pretty exciting for us.

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[JC]: We didn't know what it was, but we knew they loved us, and they were gonna make sure it was a special birthday.

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[JC]: All right, so we have a loving father, and we can trust him.

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[JC]: Yeah, he might surprise us.

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[JC]: I suspect he will surprise us on some things.

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[JC]: But I know enough about his character and his nature that those surprises are going to be delightful.

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[JC]: And number two,

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[JC]: Okay, God has revealed His Son to us in Scripture so that we can be saved, right?

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[JC]: That's the point of Scripture.

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[JC]: So I mentioned it's not exhaustive, and for us to get caught up on that is to miss the point.

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[JC]: The point is that, I mean, that God even revealed Himself at all.

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[JC]: Right?

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[JC]: I mean, he reveals himself in Jesus.

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[JC]: No other God, no other religion has a verse like John 1, 14.

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[JC]: Right?

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[JC]: The word becomes flesh.

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[JC]: None.

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[JC]: None.

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[JC]: Only Christianity.

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[JC]: That's got to be one of the most remarkable verses ever echoed in any religion.

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[JC]: And that's our God.

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[JC]: So if that's our God, and he's revealed himself, then yep, there are some things we're going to go, don't know.

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[JC]: God didn't tell us.

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[JC]: But

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[JC]: Because we know Him and we know He loves us, we can trust Him.

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[JC]: The surprise?

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[JC]: It'll be good.

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[TW]: Pastor Jonathan Connor is our guest.

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[TW]: It's part two of our series, Kids Have Questions.

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[TW]: On the other side, what will we do in heaven?

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[TW]: Welcome back to Issues Etc.

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[TW]: I'm Todd Wilkin.

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[TW]: It's our series Kids Have Questions.

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[TW]: Today we're talking about the afterlife, heaven, resurrection, and the new earth.

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[TW]: Pastor Jonathan Conner is our guest.

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[TW]: Jonathan, here's one.

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[TW]: What will we do in heaven?

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[TW]: I understand that we will continue to worship God.

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[TW]: Also, will we be able to look down to the earth?

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[JC]: Yeah.

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[JC]: So again, I'll offer my answer and then I think there's some things to dig into here.

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[JC]: First, great question I say to the child.

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[JC]: Let me first clarify something.

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[JC]: Going to heaven is what happens when our body dies and our soul is welcomed into the presence of Jesus.

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[JC]: This is a wonderful part of the Christian confession.

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[JC]: But the best part is the hope we have in the resurrection of the dead and the renewal of the earth.

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[JC]: So our greatest hope isn't just to die and go to heaven.

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[JC]: Our greatest hope is to rise from the dead and live on this renewed earth with Jesus and all the redeemed.

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[JC]: Now, regarding what happens in heaven while we wait for the resurrection, the Bible doesn't say a lot.

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[JC]: It describes worship.

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[JC]: It says we rest.

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[JC]: It says we're with Jesus, but it doesn't say much more.

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[JC]: But that's because this isn't the Bible's main focus.

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[JC]: The Bible's main focus is the resurrection.

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[JC]: And the Bible doesn't say that we'll be able to see what's happening on earth.

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[JC]: So it's possible, but we can't say one way or another.

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[JC]: Okay, now, back to this idea of dying and going to heaven, or, for lack of a better term, this isn't necessarily the biblical term, but I call it intermediate heaven, or the heaven of refreshment, the place of refreshment while we wait for the resurrection.

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[JC]: You know, Todd, there's not a lot.

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[JC]: There's some, there's some, but there's not a lot that expands upon that experience for the believer.

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[JC]: And that's because, like I referenced to the child, the Bible is not primarily what I would call an upward-looking book, but it's a forward-looking book.

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[JC]: So it's not a book that's so much concerned about the die and go to heaven piece.

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[JC]: It does talk about that.

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[JC]: It makes a few references, and I'll reference that in a second.

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[JC]: But it's more concerned, I mean the thing that's fixated on is the resurrection and the renewal of all things.

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[JC]: So this is like when you're going on vacation and you kind of have a layover someplace and you've got something fun planned there and it's a wonderful time, but it's not the place you're ultimately heading toward.

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[JC]: The place you're ultimately heading for, that's what you're focused on.

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[JC]: So that's Scripture.

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[JC]: Scripture is focused on the resurrection, the renewal of all things.

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[JC]: I mentioned, like Paul says in Philippians 1, that to be with Jesus, he says, is far better.

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[JC]: Over in 2 Corinthians 5, he talks about dying.

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[JC]: He says he would rather be home with the Lord.

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[JC]: So there's this idea of homeness or being with the Lord.

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[JC]: You have in Luke 23, Jesus tells the thief on the cross, today you'll be with me in paradise.

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[JC]: You have that text in Revelation 14 where it talks about the saints resting from their labor.

38:47.513 --> 38:50.296
[JC]: So that's where we get the idea of this resting from labor.

38:50.316 --> 38:52.578
[JC]: And this would be more like laborious toil.

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[JC]: It's not just like twiddling your thumb sort of thing.

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[JC]: And then you have over in Revelation 7 this description of the saints in heaven who are serving, or the word can be translated, worshiping the Lord day and night.

39:04.288 --> 39:11.493
[JC]: So this is, in a nutshell, basically what we learn about the existence in heaven while we're waiting for the resurrection.

39:11.773 --> 39:17.157
[JC]: Now, when it comes to the resurrection, this is where it gets really exciting.

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[JC]: So I mentioned earlier using our imagination.

39:21.317 --> 39:26.760
[JC]: And one way to kind of capture this is we don't want to think outside the book of Scripture at all.

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[JC]: We want to stay within the book.

39:29.421 --> 39:36.084
[JC]: But I think it's a good practice to let Scripture inform and inspire our imagination.

39:36.265 --> 39:42.448
[JC]: So everybody's familiar with the TV series, all the different spinoffs, but the basic premise of the total makeover, right?

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[JC]: So they're going to make over this house.

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[JC]: They send the owners away for however long, a week or however it is.

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[JC]: Now think about this.

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[JC]: When the owners are away, do you think they're imagining what the total makeover is going to look like?

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[JC]: I'm pretty sure that's about the only thing they're thinking about is what it's going to look like when they return or what it's going to be like.

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[JC]: So here's my question.

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[JC]: Are we not to imagine what the renewed earth

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[JC]: is going to be like?

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[JC]: I mean, shouldn't we?

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[JC]: I think we should.

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[JC]: I mean, doesn't that build excitement?

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[JC]: Right.

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[JC]: So I think of Romans chapter eight.

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[JC]: I love Romans chapter eight, beginning of verse 18.

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[JC]: There's so much to talk about there.

40:24.583 --> 40:30.788
[JC]: But for our purposes, creation, roughly translating here, creation is on the edge of its seat, Paul says.

40:31.229 --> 40:33.411
[JC]: And then he says we are on the edge of our seat.

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[JC]: Right.

40:33.991 --> 40:38.615
[JC]: There's such an important place in the Christian faith for the imagination.

40:38.815 --> 40:40.616
[JC]: So here are kind of questions to think through.

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[JC]: What will be the same on the new earth?

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[JC]: What will change?

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[JC]: What will we, as image bearers of God set free from sin and death and the curse, what will we create?

40:52.981 --> 40:54.202
[JC]: Will we learn new instruments?

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[JC]: Will we create new instruments?

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[JC]: Will we learn new languages?

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[JC]: Will we compose symphonies?

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[JC]: Will we write or build or paint?

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[JC]: Or will we dance or will we play sports?

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[JC]: I think these are good questions to be asking.

41:09.032 --> 41:10.753
[JC]: Can we be definitive and dogmatic?

41:10.933 --> 41:12.934
[JC]: Of course not, but we can imagine.

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[JC]: There's a great book out there.

41:15.076 --> 41:18.919
[JC]: Veith was the co-author of it, Gene Veith, Imagination Redeemed.

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[JC]: And the basic premise of the book, and I don't remember if he exactly said this or I'm just summarizing it in my head, but it was basically this.

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[JC]: Whatever captures our imagination captures us.

41:32.008 --> 41:35.491
[JC]: Whatever captures our imagination captures us.

41:35.952 --> 41:43.459
[JC]: Don't we want the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead and life eternal with Jesus and the redeemed and the renewal of the earth?

41:43.939 --> 41:46.902
[JC]: Don't we want that to capture our imagination?

41:47.523 --> 41:55.290
[JC]: I just imagine a church so captivated with that promise that they're just exuberantly giving toward it and confessing it.

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[JC]: looking forward to what's it going to be like and talking about it.

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[JC]: Do you think it'd be like this?

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[JC]: Do you think it'd be like this?

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[JC]: That's the sort of thing I think could just excite a church like nothing else.

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[JC]: The total makeover.

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[JC]: It's coming to earth, man.

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[JC]: And Jesus is going to do that for us.

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[JC]: How much more exciting could it get?

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[JC]: So I love talking about this stuff.

42:15.798 --> 42:16.738
[JC]: I love when kids ask.

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[JC]: I love when adults ask.

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[JC]: I think this is something we should be talking about all the time.

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[TW]: What about the question of will we be able to look down on earth?

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[TW]: That's, I think, a big one for so many.

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[JC]: Yeah, yeah.

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[JC]: So, okay, I'm going to say it's a possibility.

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[JC]: You don't have any definitive texts, of which I'm aware, and I'm certainly willing to have someone smarter than me to come along and say, oh, there it is, you missed it.

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[JC]: I'm all ready to be corrected.

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[JC]: I know we have texts from Jesus talking about rejoicing in heaven when a sinner repents, the text of Revelation 6, where it talks about the souls under the throne and their longing for God to bring judgment on the wickedness on earth.

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[JC]: So I guess it's possible.

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[JC]: There are a few texts that,

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[JC]: Like I said, open the door to that possibility.

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[JC]: I'm not aware of any text, and certainly if we got a listener out there who knows this better than I do, let us know.

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[JC]: But I'm not aware of any text that's definitive that says, yep, our loved one's in heaven, or we're in heaven, they know exactly what's happening on earth.

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[JC]: I'm also very leery of

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[JC]: I've been around enough strange ideas where they're just in the next room.

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[JC]: We don't have that in Scripture at all.

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[JC]: Or they're at your ballgame watching down on you.

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[JC]: And okay, again, I'll leave that an open question.

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[JC]: But part of me thinks, if I'm in the presence of God, I just don't know how captivating a baseball game is going to be at that point.

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[JC]: So I think maybe it's again,

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[JC]: expecting people in heaven to be more interested in what's happening on earth, then they are captivated with the source of joy and happiness that is in Jesus, our Lord and Savior.

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[JC]: So I'll leave it open as an open question, but I think maybe we're a little bit too this age focused when we should be more Jesus focused and resurrection focused.

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[JC]: And that should be maybe where our hopes should be more anchored and find a greater comfort there.

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[TW]: Final question, in a family, if mom believes in Jesus and the dad doesn't, then when they die, will they ever get to see each other again?

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[JC]: Yeah, you know, I'll tell you, that's a real question.

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[JC]: And that's a question that families wrestle with, especially when you have one parent who's a believer and one who's not.

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[JC]: That's a poignant question.

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[JC]: Now, my question to this child is short, and that's because this particular child likes to ask questions.

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[JC]: And sometimes in their learning journal, I get seven, eight, or nine questions from one child.

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[JC]: So I have to be brief sometimes.

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[JC]: So my answer is shorter than normal, but I'll expand upon it.

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[JC]: So I'm just very direct.

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[JC]: and say, Scripture describes a coming separation.

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[JC]: In Matthew 25, 46, Jesus says that the unrighteous, so unbelievers, will go away into eternal punishment, and the righteous, believers, will go into eternal life.

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[JC]: So it seems as if the answer is no.

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[JC]: Once this separation happens, it will remain this way forever.

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[JC]: Now, I think the deeper question, and I get asked this question too, so I'm gonna expand upon this, would be,

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[JC]: How can we be happy in heaven without our loved one there?

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[JC]: And that's a real question.

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[JC]: I mean, I have been asked that question multiple times by both people who are theorizing about it and those who, where it's a very real possibility that will be the case.

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[JC]: So I'm going to venture an answer, and for everybody listening, you take it for what it's worth, right?

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[JC]: And if you have a better answer, I'm all ears.

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[JC]: But here's the way I would work through this.

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[JC]: Think of the things you love about the people in your life.

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[JC]: So think of their creativity, their compassion, their faithfulness, their honesty, their can-do spirit, their eternal optimism.

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[JC]: Maybe it's their patience or their beautiful spirit.

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[JC]: You add to the list, whatever it is, the good, the right, the true, and the beautiful.

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[JC]: What is it in your loved ones that you truly delight in, all right?

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[JC]: Now, as image bearers of God, and I would argue that whether they're believers or not,

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[JC]: They, in many and diverse ways, reflect that image to us.

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[JC]: And that's what we're finding lovely.

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[JC]: Okay?

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[JC]: So we're seeing something shining through them.

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[JC]: This kind of goes back to our conversation on God's grace transforming us earlier.

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[JC]: And in this case, we may be talking about unbelievers.

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[JC]: So even for an unbeliever, he or she bears the image of God.

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[JC]: All right?

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[JC]: So in heaven, here's the important part.

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[JC]: We're going to see the source of the lovely, the source of the beautiful, the source of the attraction and delight.

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[JC]: Now, from our perspective, I don't think there's any way we can imagine being happy without that person.

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[JC]: I haven't figured out how personally to imagine this.

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[JC]: So I get the struggle.

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[JC]: But in heaven, I fully anticipate that our perspective is going to change.

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[JC]: Because here's why.

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[JC]: We're going to see the source of all happiness.

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[JC]: So will we miss or lament a person's absence?

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[JC]: Maybe.

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[JC]: It's hard to conceive not.

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[JC]: But our happiness will still be full because we're going to be in the presence of the one who gives eternal happiness.

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[JC]: And I think our love for our fellow redeemed in the resurrection, I think it's just going to swell all the more as we see more clearly God's beauty and lovingness shining through them.

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[JC]: So I guess the short of it is,

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[JC]: Yeah, maybe there'll be a sense that they are not there and there's a lamentation over that in some sense.

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[JC]: But again, here we are again defining happiness by the negative as opposed to by the positive.

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[JC]: And I think if we switch our perspective and say,

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[JC]: If we define it by the positive, then maybe what we've seen all along, the thing that's made us happy in this person has been some aspect of the nature of God that we've longed for and yearned for.

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[JC]: And then when we're standing in the very presence of it, we're seeing the fullness of it.

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[JC]: Well then, then we're full.

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[JC]: And I don't want this to sound crass, but then we're full with or without that person.

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[JC]: And I think if we can kind of come to that place, I think that's maybe a way to start working through that question in a helpful way.

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[TW]: Pastor Jonathan Connor is pastor of Zion Lutheran Church in Manning, Iowa.

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[TW]: You will find a link to his blog on the Talk On Demand archives page at issuesetc.org.

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[TW]: Jonathan, thank you again.

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[JC]: Hey, thanks so much.